Great stuff Skip.<br><br>
One thing I notice, I can NOT drink enough during a long run to balance out my sweat rate. If I try to drink that much I get a sloshy stomach. I can delay the dehydration for quite a while, but I can not negate it.<br><br>
I think I may have to think about taking a recovery drink to the gym when I am going 2 hours or more. I don't make back home in under twenty minutes if I take time to shower first. And driving home before the shower makes for a stinky car for a couple of days.

 

Thanks Skip... stuff I've heard before but you went into a bit more detail that I appreciate. Always good to hear this again. I was thinking what I used to do a lot of last year was a fat free "light" yogurt smoothie. My favorite brand was the Safeway brand Lucerne, but Yoplait and Dannon make good ones too. I like the "light" because I don't want the fat. I like chocolate milk too... but I have two problems with it. One is 14 and one is 16. By the time I need it, it's gone!<br>
I've also liked the Luna Sport Recovery Smoothie mix (Dark Chocolate flavor of course), shaken up with skim milk. And almonds.... love those almonds! But I guess that (and the bananas I like with them) go in the solid food category.<br><br>
I think one of my biggest problems is waiting too long to get my recovery fuel in me. Need to have it with me when I'm away from home.

 

I'm a huge fan of using chockky milk. It's convenient, tasty, and it works well. It's also handy, because we keep it stocked for my 4 yo DS.<br><br>
Sometimes I'll make coffee milk instead, by firing up a shot of espresso. adding sugar and pouring it into a tall glass of milk. Same protein:carb ratio, but with a bigger hit of caffeine.<br><br>
--Robin

 

Thanks, Skip. Great details and suggestions.<br>
It's always a good reminder that a long run isn't over just because you've stopped running.<br>
jjj

 

BTW, is "Silk" chocolate soy milk okay? I love its creamy texture!<br><br>
Alex ( Alberto Salazar loves it too; it's a major recovery component of his Oregon Project for his runners)

 

Nice summary, Skip.<br><br>
I would question the advice to drink enough to maintain your weight. Here is a passage from "Brain Training for Runners":<br><br>
The author's advice, for this and other reasons, is to drink according to your thirst.

 

Thanks, Skip. I may experiment with recovery drinks. With the weather getting warmer here, and giving up chocolate for Lent, I will need to replace my hot chocolate routine. The point about nuts like almonds is interesting because I often refuel afterwards with those. I knew I needed protein, not just carbs, quickly afterwards and thought nuts were a good source of that. I guess, like Erika said, since they're solid food they take too long to digest.

 

Oh now why would anyone in their right mind want to do that?? <img alt="confused.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/confused.gif">

 

Thanks, Skip --<br><br>
This is great information. I think I have been indavertantly refueling according to this plan. I just thought my Go-Lean Crunch with skim milk, bananas and blueberries tasted so good after running!! I also love the almonds I put in, though. You would recommend leaving those out? I'll add chocolate milk to the mix (in addition to my coffee, of course!). After all, what's not to like about chocolate?<br><br>
On a related topic, I think I have trouble fueling during long runs. I don't take anything for runs up to 13 miles (usually a little more than 2 hrs in training). I force myself to take gels during longer runs, but I hate it. I do not want to eat, but that's not so good. I felt pretty bad after my 15 miler on Sunday. Do you think that was because I only had one gel at mile 6? For my marathon, I just told myself to take gels at specific times and not to try to overanalyze. It seemed to work...<br><br>
thanks,<br>
GGP

 

This is not a very informed opinion, other than by my sample size of 1. But I've found that it is not so much the fueling issue that leaves me feeling lousy at the end of a long run...it is an electrolyte issue. I rarely eat anything at all during my long runs now, and my tummy is much the happier for it. I do drink some milk beforehand and take some Endurolytes (electrolyte capsules). That seems to do the trick perfectly! Closer to marathon date, I'll practice with a few gels during a fast finish long run. But not so much for fueling, but just to make sure I've got the hang of it and that whatever I've chosen seems to sit well with my tummy.<br><br>
--Robin

 

I usually take a bottle of Cytomax with me on my long runs. I'll drink it all, and if it's hot, I bring some powder to make more with water from a water fountain. Do you think that's enough for the electrolytes? I bought some NUUN (right name?) tablets, but haven't used them yet since I figured having the sugar in the sports drink is probably a good thing.

 

Interesting info <b>Millbot</b> - I appreciate your sharing it. I'm not familiar with this book but to me, it doesn't ring true. Here's what I have trouble with - and I could be really off base here - the author claims that "converting large amounts of carbs and fat into energy" easily translates into a few pounds of weight loss. The numbers (as I view them) don't back this up. Here is my reasoning: A generally accepted number for calorie burn during long distance running is 250 cal/hr. Say your weekend long run is 2.5 hrs. You are burning about 625 cal during the run. This is generally a mix or carbs and fat (and even a little protein unfortunately). Let's say it's 80% carbs and the rest fat so of that 625 cal used, 500 cal from carbs, 125 from fat. One gram of carbs yields 4 cal. One gram of fat yields 9 cal. So we've burned 125g of carbs and 14g of fat for a total of 139g....which is a whopping 5 oz. which is hardly significant and certainly not "a few pounds". The author makes mention of the water released in this energy conversion. I'm not sure exactly how to handle that but if we consider the h2o to be part of the carbs/fat prior to conversion to fuel (seems likely) then at best the 5 oz of carbs/fat becomes 5oz of water and assuming it is all lost through sweat, still isn't significant. So while it is not absolutely correct to assume all the weight loss during a long run is water loss, it seems like a reasonable approximation to me (and apparently per your author, to the real scientists). I could be way off base here - if so, please correct me. Perhaps the author offers more information to back up the statements.<br><br>
As to the drink when you are thirsty part, this also goes against accepted practice. I'd have to research that a bit more but your body's chemical signaling system takes time to function, by the time it says "drink" (or "eat"<img alt="wink.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/wink.gif"> you are already at a deficient and similarly, by the time it says "enough", you have overshot.<br><br>
On other points/questions:<br><b>Alex</b> - Light Silk Chocolate Soy Milk has a ratio of 22g carbs to 5g protein - pretty close to 4:1 so go for it! It also has high potassium and sodium to bring your electrolytes back up and no cholesterol.<br><br><b>Cash</b> - have you tried carrying a hand-held bottle and taking small sips often? Just an idea.<br><br><b>Almond lovers</b> - some of the articles I have read suggested avoiding fat intake during the initial few hours after prolonged exercise - others suggested it didn't matter. Hey at least it's GOOD fat (right Opie?!)<br><br><b>GGP</b> - re your issue with fueling during the run, why do you hate it? Does it upset your stomach? Don't like the taste? What? I have a found a significant variation in my tolerance of gels. At first I couldn't figure out why some bothered me and others didn't - turned it it was the caffeine. I drink very little caffeine and found the big jolt of caffeine in some gels was the culprit. Perhaps that is an issue for you too? (even if you are a leaded coffee drinker.) Most brands offer some favors with and some without caffeine. I have also found they sit better in my stomach if I dilute them in my mouth before swallowing. I tear the package open, get a a slug of gel in my mouth, and before swallowing, add some water and swish it in my mouth like mouth wash to dissolve the gel THEN swallow. Works for me.<br><br><b>Let me reiterate, I'm not a sports nutritionist - I'm just trying to offer up some ideas for your consideration.<br></b><br>
Oh and <b>Opie</b>, I thought giving up chocolate for Lent was a sin. I'm with <b>Erika</b> on that one.<br><br>
Skip

 

Regarding hyration, there's one point I've had trouble with. I use gels on my LR's. I think they help. I use Gu at miles 8, 14, and 20 and one 15 minutes before the start of the run. Now I read somewhere (Hal Higdon?) that if you use gel, don't use sports drink during the run - that's too much electrolyte along with the gel in your belly - and that will retard absorption of water into the blood stream..He said when using gels drink plain water during the run and a sports drink when it's over. Has anyone else read this or have an opinion?

 

Interesting thread. <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"><br><br>
250 kcal per hour? That's much lower than what I thought was the commonly accepted rule of thumb of 100 kcal per mile. A 2.5-hour run at 9:00 pace would cost you 1666 kcal, 1333 kcal or 333 g of carbs and 333 kcal or 37 g of fat, or 370 g total, or 0.8 lbs.<br><br>
This is still far short of "a few pounds". I don't know the details of the water he claims is "stored with" the carbs & fat, but to total "a few pounds" it would have to be in addition to the weight of the carbs & fat itself. His phraseology implies as much too. He may be wrong.<br><br>
I think it's debatable what is accepted practice, too. Recommendations for hydrating on the run have varied over time, and vary among runners and coaches even now (witness our friend the "Gu bag"<img alt="wink.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/wink.gif"> (okay, bad example <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif">). This book and another one I have cite studies, arguments, and yes, current practice, in favor of drinking according to thirst. I don't have the books handy to give details, but I can add more later if you're interested.<br><br>
One of the arguments is that, like the body's other faculties (especially those directly involved in prolonged exercise), our sense of thirst has been highly refined by evolution, and that we ought not discount its effectiveness so quickly.<br><br>
Another argument is that the body can absorb a limited quantity of fluids (and carbs) during exercise. Taking in more than that does no good, and may reduce how much the body actually absorbs. This limit is well below what would be required to maintain body weight.

 

Great discussion Mill - thanks! I wonder if the 250 number I've heard/read is somehow ultra running specific? I'll try to search my books.<br><br>
If the water is "stored with" then isn't it part of the body's hydration and thus fluid loss?<br><br>
Wish I understood all this better!

 

Yep Skip, that is exactly what I do. I have a trail water bottle with me, including my last half. And I generally take a sip or two a mile.<br><br>
I love blowing thru water stations at full speed, while others slow down. Plus I have water when I want it, not only at aid stations, and easier to drink from a bottle than a dixie cup. Even though I practice, I still spill half the dixie cup down my shirt if I am running full speed and trying to drink.<br><br>
Plus I feel a little more "green" by not throwing a drinking up on the ground and into the landfill. The waterbottle is re used every run.

 

Yeah, Skip, you may be right about the "stored water". I read through that section again and it sounds very speculative. He doesn't give any other evidence or supporting argument.<br><br>
About the unreliability of the thirst mechanism (from Brain Training for Runners):<br><br>
Regarding current practice (also from Brain Training):<br><br>
How much to drink (from the Competitive Runner's Handbook):<br><br>
Another opinion (from Performance Nutrition for Runners):<br><br>
None of these books have bibliographies or describe the studies in any detail. I bet the Noakes book is full of references but I think I've gone on long enough. <img alt="blush.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/blush.gif">

 

Friends,<br><br>
The topic of hydration came up in a discussion with my local ultra gang. One guy is a nephrologist (kidney doctor) in addition to being an excellent masters ultra runner. Because we discussed it recently, I thought some of you might be interested in this information. With his permission I am sharing part of a post he made to us. Although written for a bunch of ultra folks, there is some good info in here for all of us. So this is my friend speaking in first person, not me:<br><br>
===<br>
“As a side note, not only have I treated all of these issues I have personally experienced many of them <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"><br>
First with regards to hydration. Thirst does not start until 0-2% weight loss has occurred and when thirst starts, you are already starting to decline significantly in performance. Do not wait until you are thirsty to drink. This is especially important in high fluid loss states: sweating, vomiting, and diarrhea. Increased humidity and wind, even in the winter, will dramatically increase fluid loss.<br>
That said, you can drink too much. So there are really five categories of electrolyte/fluid imbalance:<br><br>
1. <b>Dehydration with hypernatremia</b> (high blood sodium and not enough WATER): usually very thirsty, weight is down, salty foods taste BAD, not urinating or concentrated dark urine so need to drink water but not take in salt tabs until back in balance.<br><br>
2. <b>Dehydration</b> (normal electrolytes, not enough fluid, ie sports drink): weight is down, urine dark or low, thirsty, dizzy, may be cramping if dehydrated enough, salty foods taste good, need sports drink or water and salt tabs.<br><br>
3. <b>Dehydration with hyponatremia</b> (not enough volume and not enough electrolytes): RARE, weight is down, high thirst, this is a difficult situation to get yourself into unless you have diarrhea and are drinking only water.<br><br>
4. <b>Hypernatremia</b> (high blood sodium): RARE, thirsty but salty foods taste bad, desire for water high, this can occur if you take too many salt tabs without water.<br><br>
5. <b>Hyponatremia</b> (ie low blood sodium): common, normal weight, queasy stomach, salty foods are craved. This occurs from drinking too much water, usually seen in slower runners in a marathon or during a long race where someone is only drinking water or sodium free fluids.<br><br>
The longer the race, the more likely that any or all of these can occur at some point during the race. You have to determine you own sweat rate. This can be difficult. Once it starts getting hotter, try to run during the heat of the day. Weigh yourself before and after your run. If you drank fluids or urinated, you will need to figure that into your weight. Try different concentrations of fluids, Gatorade, Heed, Perpetuem etc. Try taking different salts tabs and see how your stomach does with these. This will help you stay in balance during a race.<br><br>
Diarrhea is almost always a sign of too much concentration of electrolytes or carbohydrates. So try cutting back on gels or salt tabs and drinking small amount of Gatorade and eating small amounts of more solid food. Diarrhea can be a sign that you are going "too fast", that the bowel wont absorb or it can mean that your bowels are swollen if you have taken in too much salt tabs. Check you legs- are they swollen? If they are swollen above the ankle, you may have too much salt in your body. If you have taken in too much salt, you wont be craving it. The feet may swell at any time just from trauma or the shoes or socks being too tight so they are NOT a good indicator of your hydration. If your skin tents up when pinched ie doesn’t snap back down when you pinch it together, you are dehydrated. Check this on the back of your hand of forearm gently.<br><br>
Nausea or a stomach that is "sloshing around" means the stomach isn’t draining. Again you may be going "too fast" and not absorbing or what you have been taking in may be too concentrated to absorb. Try to drink small amounts of normal temperature water slowly. Very cold water can cause cramping. Pour the ice water over the head, but try to keep the drinking water not too cold IF you are having stomach problems. You can recover from massive vomiting. In 2007 when I ran CanLake [50 miler] it was in the 80s and I pushed too much Gatorade. I puked from mile 25 to 35 and developed severe calf cramps and could barely walk. I started drinking small amounts of water and took a salt tab every half hour until I could run. I ran from mile 35 to the finish.<br><br>
Any of these problems can be over come if you know what to look for. The best indictor though is yourself, and what has happened to you in the past. What may work for one person, wont work for the next. Don’t give up. Keep trying different things. I now eat a large meal (yogurt, banana and oatmeal plus 8 oz of Perpetuem before my longs runs). This has pushed my bowels to be able to deal with having to digest while I run. I don’t recommend trying this before a race though. Just in training.<br><br>
After a race, almost as soon as I cross the finish, RAISING MY HANDS, I take a couple salt tabs to prevent cramps. Dropping your hands and placing them on your knees may cause you to throw up on the race director’s shoes. This is not pretty. Sorry Tom. [Tom was the RD wearing the shoes!]<br>
I hope that this is helpful.”<br>
===<br><br>
I hope so too!<br><br>
Skip

 

Great stuff.. a keeper thread.<br>
It really depends on the temperature. In teh 30's I need very little for a 20 miler but if it's 60's it's a whole other story and I'll sweat 8 lbs. For my warmest marathon I took extra care for hydration... from my race report: "<span style="font-family:'Times New Roman';">I stopped at every aid station and drank 2 water and 1 gatoraid cups often with e-caps to average 3 per hour (12 during the run and 3 before = 15 e-caps!) I also had a gu at 5 of the aid stations starting at mile 10. This strategy worked very well as I never felt fatigued. "</span><br><br><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman';">And I didn't have to pee <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"></span><br><br><span style="font-family:'Times New Roman';">For Boston (60°F):<br>
Fueling: 8 oz water at 2, 4, 8, 12, 24 and water + Gu + 2 ecaps at 6, 10, 14, 16, 18, 20, 22 (7 gus and 13 e-caps (dropped one)<br>
I carry an 8 oz sippy cup and fill it at the aid stations while running then sip the next 2 miles.<br></span>

 

Please see avatar for correct anti-barf pose after finishing the marathon.

 

Hey Skep et al, thanks for a great thread of information! I've tried refueling immediately after a long run, but this helped to show why and how quickly.<br><br>
I'm pretty clear on what my body needs for water/fuel during a long run or race, I just space out and forget to take a gel at the planned points. I've under consumed many times in the marathon with the expected results (bonk/cramps), but I don't think I've ever over consumed. I think I need at least 4 gels to stay fueled, 2-3 is not enough.<br><br>
Thanks again!