Thursday, 2-28, running and fitness

gatorbob · Feb 29, 2008

Cheap-ass that I am, I'm all for cost-efficiency. But back-to-back marathons (or back-to-back-to-back; is that was the Triple Challenge is?) might not be very cost effective, when you factor in the doctor bills afterwards... 
Really? Well yeah, then I can win from NJ. Of course, with my luck, some faster person will make the trek across the country for it this year... 
Heh. This really hasn't been a goal of mine. (Being first from NJ, I mean). It'd be a cute accomplishment if it happens. But I don't think I'm going to choose a race based solely on how many people from NJ typically run it... <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif"> 
My PR is also on a course far away from home (about 1000 miles) in a place I'd never been before. And on a hard course. So I would say it doesn't matter if you know what the building around the corner looked like. But I would say it's extremely advantageous to know the hill profile. The Mercedes Marthon was very hilly, but I knew that (and I knew where they were), so I was prepared for each hill. Prae, I would say you don't need to know what the course looks like, per se. But you should definitely know the hill profile, plus a few more things. You should know what the weather will be. See Chicago '07. Check the advance forecast 10 days out, and then check it again every day for updates. And prepare yourself accordingly. (As best as possible. As Chicago showed, sometimes even that's not enough). 
You should also do enough research to find out a few other things to prevent surprises. Will the course be really crowded, or will there be stretches where you're practically alone? Will there be noisy spectators everywhere, or will there be gaps where there's nobody? Where are the fluid stations? Is it asphalt the whole way, or does the surface change at any point? If you know the answers to these, you won't panic becuase something sneaks up on you... Just my opinions...

McTortle · Feb 29, 2008

Yay Tonya!!!! Great job getting that 6 in!!! (Um - you wouldn't want to do mine too, would ya?! <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif">)

govandals · Feb 29, 2008

No run last night. About 1.5 hours of cross-training. A little sore today, but that's a good thing. 
Just ran about 1/2 mile at lunchtime, if that counts... Went to lunch with TW. Nearby deli. Healthy food. No wallet. I always have my wallet. Seems I had taken it out to get through security this morning, then just tossed it in my bag. DOH! So - ran back to the courthouse, up to my office, grabbed wallet, ran back. Roughly 1/2 mile.... What a bonehead. 
Should I put this in my running log??? <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif"> Wasn't it Cus with the famous line about "every freakin' mile that was in front of you, and is now behind you. . . ?"

coacht · Feb 29, 2008

I actually agree with almost everything you say Tom. 
1. I used to obsess over my easy run training paces, but not so much any more. I generally run by feel - if I'm feeling good, this is usually about 8/mile and when I'm feeling not so good my pace could reach 8:30. I don't bring a watch with me any longer on my easy runs, so I don't really know what my pace is on most days. 
2. I'd clarify my original post to say that I don't think any speedwork is required (speedwork being anything faster than easy pace) if one continues to improve by running only easy miles. The issue there is that most people don't want to maximize the benefits of running easy miles only. I sure didn't. The returns from doing speedwork are (likely to be) exponential in relation to those that can be derived from doing only easy runs. To me it's a matter of one's level of patience - the HR gurus seem to be willing to play out the string on improving performance through basebuilding all the way to the end, while those who utilize speedwork have a shorter horizon. Neither is wrong IMHO, it's a matter of where you'd like to take your running and in what timeframe. Based on my reading of Jens posts, she's more comfortable pursuing the basebuilding approach and that approach seems to be working for her, so why not continue to pursue it. You're right though, that approach isn't for everyone - and not one that I'd recommend for everyone either - she's probably the first. 
But overall, I agree, nice post Tom. This thread could use a lot more discussion like this IMHO.

praecipua · Feb 29, 2008

Thanks, boB. I think my half in October will be the first race where the logistics of the race really matter. I mean my 5k was a complete disaster last August for many of the reasons you mention in your post (crazy bad humidity, a course that was uphill for more than 2 miles, changing surfaces, plenty of alone time in the woods, etc.), but it was so short, I didn't fear not being able to finish (though I did think I was going to die afterward). The half and longer, though, seem to be the distances were that type of stuff really matters. I'll definitely keep all this advice in mind.

eccabex · Feb 29, 2008

Mmmmmmmmmmm...

KP · Feb 29, 2008

Trevor/Tom, have the two of you seen the article in the latest edition of Running Times on this very subject? 
It was just the author's experience (so a study of one, but then isn't that the case for all of our training plans?) but he followed a bit of Lydiard and Daniels and focused on at least five months minimum of basebuilding. Which is along the line of low HR people that Trevor referenced. 
An appropriate amount of easy running and adding speedwork is truly where the science and art of training plan design meet and like it has been pointed out it really is based on the individual who is training. I think that individual approach is why such coaching legends such as Bowerman and Daniels who have general plans and then tailor them to the individual have been successful and are revered. 
I know from my experience that yes, speedwork has helped, but I probably benefited mostly from just getting my mileage over 30/week.

ScratchType1 · Feb 29, 2008

Gah, I hate wind. Hate it hate it hate it. Good thing it's a leap year. 
I got through 3.3 miles and that was enough out there. I'll go out tomorrow to get the last 2.6 miles to break 100 miles for the month.

coacht · Feb 29, 2008

I saw that. I thought that it was a way of taking Daniels' book and turning it into a nice, readable story.

JenRuns · Feb 29, 2008

It's not like I'm one the low HR maniacs out there. I do speedwork, just not as much as the rest of you guys. I'm following Pftiz (I assume he knows what he's doing) pretty close and haven't cut the speedwork out/short...I've just blown up on some of those last time around and don't want to repeat that mistake. I'm also racing a least 2/3 times a month on top of that. 
I'm very intrigued with Daniels harder plan and might make a play for that next time I'm really focused on trying to hit a really fast marathon...I'm guessing this will be around a year from now. 
I've kind of been brainwashed that base-endurance is what solid marathoning is all about and that your true base takes a long time to develop--I'm sure it'll be a couple more years for me (?), so I've just been running basically for mileage this past year. I know that endurance lasts the longest and speed gains tend to peak and then drop off quicker, so I'm a little unsure at what point to focus on those more. I would hate to peak too soon. 
Like I said earlier, I truly believe we are all an experiment of one, so only time will tell what works best. I love this kind of dialog, there is so much for everyone to add and for everyone to learn at the same time!

solarpowered · Feb 29, 2008

Just back from 9 miles at my easy pace. That's waaaaaaay slower than you fast people are talking about <img alt="cool.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/cool.gif"> 
But I'm at the beach, and even with the 17* windchill and 22-31mph winds, it was sunny and clear and I could look to my right and see the ocean for about 5 of those miles. <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif">

praecipua · Feb 29, 2008

Show-off! <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif"> Way to get out there. I really enjoyed running near the ocean for the second week of c25k last year. I'll be at the beach again this May, so I'll get to do it again, only longer this time <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif">.

KP · Feb 29, 2008

FYI Lora, my easy pace right now on the TM is 10:55 and would probably be around 10:00-10:15 outside (just slower on the TM) <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif">

cus · Feb 29, 2008

Triple yoi. 
I'll be there and running if I can even get close to ready. If not, I'll have the mini van gassed up and get the cheering squad to different parts of the course. (yeah, I said mini van...you got a problem with that.<img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif">) 
This is probably the only way to get boo-ed running the pgh marathon. 
I think the last year it did end in Heinz Field. And again, count me in. 
Great Job. 
I knew that was my cue, but you stepped on my line! <img alt="huh.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/huh.gif">

duckgeek · Feb 29, 2008

Hey again, 
5.5 miles at an easy pace today. Another beautiful day in the high 50's here. Someone here referred to it as "The Fake" - ie the time of the year when the weather signals that spring is coming, but were still going to get slammed a couple of more times by bad stuff. 
Great discussion guys. Anybody want me to ask Vin anything? <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"> 
FWIW - I've mentioned my xBIL before and he was an OlyTrials marathoner in '84. Jeff was an aerobic monster without a corresponding fast top gear (only 31+ for 10K). I asked him one day if he were able, would he still run 120 miles per week like he did in his prime? His answer - ABSOLUTELY.

cus · Feb 29, 2008

First attempt at posting a picture. <img alt="" src="http://i32.tinypic.com/6sgle1.jpg" style="border:0px solid;"> 
Hey, it worked. Anyway, just thought I'd share the fact that a friend who ran Vegas with me did so in full steeler gear. It's tough to make out, but that's a full sleeve Steeler shirt and Steeler sweats he wore. Dude is a little over dressed, but a small price to pay to support the team. 
Please ignore the clock and the wind blown disaster on the right. <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif"><img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif">

KP · Feb 29, 2008

Duck I'll take the weather in Eugene this time of year over Michigan any freakin' day.

runningINnyc · Feb 29, 2008

I like the discussion going on here... very interesting stuff indeed! I'm back from a short progression run where I progressed every 1/2 mile (stuck on TM and needed something to change up more often than every mile). Here's how it looked: 
1.50 mi warm-up betw 8:34-8:49 
.50 mi @8:20 
.50 mi @8:06 
1.00 mi @7:53 (I stayed here a full mile b/c there's where my buddy Theia was running her tempo miles at tonight) 
.50 mi @7:41 
.50 mi @7:30 
1.50 mi cool down @8:34 
Total - 6 miles. 
Followed up with some planks and rehab stuff for the hamstring. Needed to leave some fuel in the tank for volleyball later tonight ...oh yeah, I feel a big win coming on!!! 
Great picture Cus! You should put it in the racing photos thread too!

JenRuns · Feb 29, 2008

Great run, Maria! 
I agree that mixing stuff up, either pace or incline during a TM run really helps the whole TM thing go by faster. It gives me something to think about other than just wondering when I'll be done.

runningINnyc · Feb 29, 2008

There were a whole bunch of vultures circling my TM, checking out the time too. Dang rush hour at the gym <img alt="sad.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/sad.gif">

Thursday, 2-28, running and fitness

gatorbob

McTortle

govandals

coacht

praecipua

eccabex

KP

ScratchType1

coacht

JenRuns

solarpowered

praecipua

KP

cus

duckgeek

cus

KP

runningINnyc

JenRuns

runningINnyc

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