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No, I'm not implying that my experiences are like anyone else's. I am saying that I've seen, read, and thought a lot about this issue. I know a lot of people in New York, and I've heard/read a lot of other New Yorkers speak in the papers and on the news.<br><br>
Based on everything I have seen and read, I came to the opinion that most locals want the site moved. No, the majority isn't always necessarily right. But in this particular case, it doesn't seem like they are asking for much. Moving the site a few blocks away seems like a reasonable solution. That's why I'm on board with that.
 
<p>But the majority of locals don't want it moved.  Just because you live near there, and you've heard from a few, maybe read about a few who just happened to be quoted =/= the majority.</p>
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<p><strong><em>Broken down by borough, <a class="informTopicLink" href="http://www.nbcnewyork.com/topics?topic=Manhattan" target="_blank" title="Manhattan">Manhattan</a> was the most in favor of the mosque, with only 36 percent of residents against it.</em></strong></p>
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<p><a href="http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/New-Yorkers-Oppose-Ground-Zero-Mosque-Poll-97602569.html" target="_blank">http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-beat/New-Yorkers-Oppose-Ground-Zero-Mosque-Poll-97602569.html</a><br><br>
36% isn't a vast majority.  It isn't even a majority.</p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>GatorBob</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/70021/the-building-of-a-mosque-in-proximity-to-ground-zero/100#post_1944104"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a><br><br>
No, I'm not implying that my experiences are like anyone else's. I am saying that I've seen, read, and thought a lot about this issue. I know a lot of people in New York, and I've heard/read a lot of other New Yorkers speak in the papers and on the news.<br><br>
Based on everything I have seen and read, I came to the opinion that most locals want the site moved. No, the majority isn't always necessarily right. But in this particular case, it doesn't seem like they are asking for much. Moving the site a few blocks away seems like a reasonable solution. That's why I'm on board with that.</div>
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<p>I'll add to that of those New Yorkers who already have an unfavorable view of Islam 86% are opposed. </p>
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<p>That tells me that for many people, it isn't about 9/11.  Its about oppressing the Muslim people.</p>
 
The poll I posted was more recent than that one.<br><br>
Keep in mind that the people who lost loved ones on 9/11 don't all live in Manhattan. That's why I'm not basing my opinion only on Manhattanites. I think the percentage of New Yorkers as a whole is a more appropriate number. I hope you guys can understand that. That's why the Manhattan number means less to me than the overall NYC number.
 
<p><br>
People that lost loved ones don't all live in NY either.  But now that you've clarified, you're at least making sense.  <img alt="" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/wink.gif" style="width:16px;height:16px;" title=""></p>
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<p>Anyway, I still don't believe that majority should rule.  The majority isn't doing what is right.  Like I posted earlier, the majority didn't want desegregation either, that doesn't mean it should have been stopped. <br>
 </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>GatorBob</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/70021/the-building-of-a-mosque-in-proximity-to-ground-zero/100#post_1944117"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a><br><br>
The poll I posted was more recent than that one.<br><br>
Keep in mind that the people who lost loved ones on 9/11 don't all live in Manhattan. That's why I'm not basing my opinion only on Manhattanites. I think the percentage of New Yorkers as a whole is a more appropriate number. I hope you guys can understand that. That's why the Manhattan number means less to me than the overall NYC number.</div>
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<p>No offense to you guys, but if you don't/haven't lived in this area, you don't quite understand what the people around here feel. In 2001, I was living in a town in NJ that lost so many people that 20/20 did a special about the town. (A main hub of the New Jersey transit rail line). I personally did not lose any loved ones on 9/11, but I know a bunch of people who did. Maybe some of you guys lost loved ones or know someone who did, or maybe not. But if not, I don't think you can understand exactly how people feel around here.</p>
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<p>ETA:  My sister-in-law and her husband live in lower Manhattan.  Their apartment had a view of the WTC towers.  A couple of their best friends lived in a building across the street from the WTC.  Thankfully, that couple was on vacation that week, because their apartment building was completely destroyed when the rubble came down.  I know someone else (who lives in NJ) whose fiancee was in Tower 1 that day.  One of my best friends from high school (who lives in NJ) who was on the train on the way to a meeting in one of the towers when the attack occured.  It shook him and his family greatly to think that half an hour later he would have been inside the building.  I know how these people feel now, nine years later.  Them, and many many like them.  I did not come to this opinion lightly, not am I basing it on some irrational bigotry of an entire religion.  These people suffered a lot more than I did, and I respect their feelings...</p>
 
<p>didn't another poster who lives and/or works in Manhattan post that he was for the mosque? (markalan?) Everyone I know is for the mosque, except maybe my racist brother who is a NYPD who thinks Obama is a muslim terrorist, but i have not asked him. Otherwise, everyone else I know in the greater NYC area seems to be for it.</p>
 
<p><br>
You're right, I don't understand how people feel.  They are directing their anger at the wrong people.  These peaceful American Muslims did not carry out the attacks on 9/11...they're just expected to pay the price for it.</p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>GatorBob</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/70021/the-building-of-a-mosque-in-proximity-to-ground-zero/100#post_1944120"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a><br><br>
No offense to you guys, but if you don't/haven't lived in this area, you don't quite understand what the people around here feel. In 2001, I was living in a town in NJ that lost so many people that 20/20 did a special about the town. (A main hub of the New Jersey transit rail line). I personally did not lose any loved ones on 9/11, but I know a bunch of people who did. Maybe some of you guys lost loved ones or know someone who did, or maybe not. But if not, I don't think you can understand exactly how people feel around here.</div>
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<p>My head just asploded.<br><br>
 </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>merigayle</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/70021/the-building-of-a-mosque-in-proximity-to-ground-zero/100#post_1944123"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>except maybe my racist brother who is a NYPD who thinks Obama is a muslim terrorist,</p>
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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>mrscoby78</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/70021/the-building-of-a-mosque-in-proximity-to-ground-zero/100#post_1944127"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>My head just asploded.<br><br>
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<p><br>
yeah, he and I do not talk very much <img alt="" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/rolleyes.gif" title=""> the last time I saw him, was over a year ago, and he went on a tirade on how Obama was a Muslim terrorist who was bringing down our country from the inside out and that for sure his birth certificate was a fake and that should really be top priority in verifying it's fakeness. We just sat there with our jaws on the ground. Unfortunately the attacks of 9/11 have turned him into a raging racist. The rest of my Manhattan family remains solidly liberal and all people loving. My aunt worked in the WTC and was one of the lucky ones.</p>
 
<p> </p>
<p>I edited one of my posts above, but didn't realize how long it would take me to type it, so now it's moved way up the thread.  This is what I wrote:</p>
<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">
<div> ETA:  My sister-in-law and her husband live in lower Manhattan.  Their apartment had a view of the WTC towers.  A couple of their best friends lived in a building across the street from the WTC.  Thankfully, that couple was on vacation that week, because their apartment building was completely destroyed when the rubble came down.  I know someone else (who lives in NJ) whose fiancee was in Tower 1 that day.  One of my best friends from high school (who lives in NJ) was on the train on the way to a meeting in one of the towers when the attack occured.  It shook him and his family greatly to think that half an hour later he would have been inside the building.  I know how these people feel now, nine years later.  Them, and many many like them.  I did not come to this opinion lightly, nor am I basing it on some irrational bigotry of an entire religion.  These people suffered a lot more than I did, and I respect their feelings...</div>
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<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>mrscoby78</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/70021/the-building-of-a-mosque-in-proximity-to-ground-zero/100#post_1944124"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a><br><p><br>
You're right, I don't understand how people feel.  They are directing their anger at the wrong people.  These peaceful American Muslims did not carry out the attacks on 9/11...they're just expected to pay the price for it.</p>
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<p>I agree with everything... except that you say "pay the price for it" like they are being asked to cut off their own thumb or something.  All they are being asked to do -- by me, and by most people, I think -- is to move their building five blocks away.  I don't think that's a big price to pay. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>If they were being asked to cut off their thumb, or burn their Korans, or leave the country, or anything drastic like that, then I'd agree with you.  But moving five blocks away does not seem like a big deal to me. <br>
 </p>
 
<p> </p>
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<p> </p>
<p>If they were being asked to cut off their thumb, or burn their Korans, or leave the country, or anything drastic like that, then I'd agree with you.  But moving five blocks away does not seem like a big deal to me. <br>
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<p><br>
It's not just this incident.  When do we stand up and say enough is enough?  These people did nothing wrong.  Leave. Them. Be.</p>
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<p><a href="http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2007/03/discrimination_against_muslims.html" target="_blank">http://newsweek.washingtonpost.com/onfaith/eboo_patel/2007/03/discrimination_against_muslims.html</a></p>
 
<p>There is no excuse for discrimination against someone based on their religion.  But my feelings on this mosque issue are limited to the area around Ground Zero.  Discrimination in Chicago or at Duke University or anywhere else in America is terrible.  But (in my opinion) that is a completely seperate issue from this one.  This issue is about the people who lost loved ones on 9/11.  If they are asking for somthing simple (moving the building site), then I am on board with them.  If they wanted to seriously harm a Muslim (or anyone else) based on their religion, then I am no longer on board.  But I do not feel that moving a building site is a big deal.  My support of these people begins and ends with moving a building site 5 blocks. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>Unfortunately, due to time constraints, this is the last I'll be able to post on this today.  Have a good weekend, everyone...</p>
 
<p>Interesting that you say to move it five blocks away. Because there is already a mosque, and has been for years, four blocks away from ground zero. Should they move a block further away out of respect for the families of 9/11</p>
<p> </p>
<p>?<a href="http://immigration.change.org/blog/view/the_ground_zero_mosque_thats_already_there" target="_blank">http://immigration.change.org/blog/view/the_ground_zero_mosque_thats_already_there</a><br><br>
 </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>GatorBob</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/70021/the-building-of-a-mosque-in-proximity-to-ground-zero/100#post_1944132"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p> </p>
<p>I edited one of my posts above, but didn't realize how long it would take me to type it, so now it's moved way up the thread.  This is what I wrote:</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I agree with everything... except that you say "pay the price for it" like they are being asked to cut off their own thumb or something.  All they are being asked to do -- by me, and by most people, I think -- is to move their building five blocks away.  I don't think that's a big price to pay. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>If they were being asked to cut off their thumb, or burn their Korans, or leave the country, or anything drastic like that, then I'd agree with you.  But moving five blocks away does not seem like a big deal to me. <br>
 </p>
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<p>What boB is trying to say, is that no one is saying the CAN'T build the Community Center\Mosque\Call it what you want there.  It is just insensitive. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>As far as his assertion about whether Manhattanites or people in lower Manhattan or people from a more expansive area have opinions that matter in this, the WTC was a REGIONAL institution.  I worked there for 7 years for the Port Authority.  It was a long-standing PA joke that the WTC (which housed the PAs headquarters) was like big brother.  From any PA facility, all you needed to do was turn your shoulder, and there it was - from JFK Airport, to the Outerbridge Crossing, the Newark ports, the GW Bridge.  Tens of thousands commuted to the WTC every day. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>At the time, I lived in a town 15 miles west of the GW Bridge.  16 members of my parish were killed.  More people from my town died that day then in the Korean War. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>My father was a career NYC fireman.  He had thankfully retired in 1997.  The Saturday following 9/11, me, my Dad, and my brother went into the city with my brother's truck loaded to the gills with water and gatorade, and visited several of the firehouses that my Dad ran when he was a Battalion Chief in the late 80s and early 90s.  (Battalion 9, 19th and 7th).  My Dad stopped counting the number of firemen he knew somewhere in the 40s.  What struck him was the number of people he knew from his days at the fire academy (1979-1983) that he knew as 20 year old kids, that now had families and kids of their own.  I have seen my father cry once in my 42 years.  It was that day.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Does that mean that the sensitivities of people like my Dad do not count, because he does not live in Manhattan (never did actually, born and raised in Brooklyn, moved to the burbs when I was a kid)?  Or that the opinions of someone from a sleepy commuter town that lost more people that day then in the Korean War don't count becuse they only worked in Manhattan, and did not live there?</p>
 
<p>Thank you for your post!  Of course your and your father's opinion matters. And all sides agreeing to move the site would now most probably be the best solution.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>But what bothers me about this whole thing is that American Muslims who want to build a mosque are somehow being linked to the fanatical Mideastern Muslims who attacked the WTC on 9/11.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><br>
 </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Litchfield Hills</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/70021/the-building-of-a-mosque-in-proximity-to-ground-zero/100#post_1944154"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>What boB is trying to say, is that no one is saying the CAN'T build the Community Center\Mosque\Call it what you want there.  It is just insensitive. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>As far as his assertion about whether Manhattanites or people in lower Manhattan or people from a more expansive area have opinions that matter in this, the WTC was a REGIONAL institution.  I worked there for 7 years for the Port Authority.  It was a long-standing PA joke that the WTC (which housed the PAs headquarters) was like big brother.  From any PA facility, all you needed to do was turn your shoulder, and there it was - from JFK Airport, to the Outerbridge Crossing, the Newark ports, the GW Bridge.  Tens of thousands commuted to the WTC every day. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>At the time, I lived in a town 15 miles west of the GW Bridge.  16 members of my parish were killed.  More people from my town died that day then in the Korean War. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>My father was a career NYC fireman.  He had thankfully retired in 1997.  The Saturday following 9/11, me, my Dad, and my brother went into the city with my brother's truck loaded to the gills with water and gatorade, and visited several of the firehouses that my Dad ran when he was a Battalion Chief in the late 80s and early 90s.  (Battalion 9, 19th and 7th).  My Dad stopped counting the number of firemen he knew somewhere in the 40s.  What struck him was the number of people he knew from his days at the fire academy (1979-1983) that he knew as 20 year old kids, that now had families and kids of their own.  I have seen my father cry once in my 42 years.  It was that day.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Does that mean that the sensitivities of people like my Dad do not count, because he does not live in Manhattan (never did actually, born and raised in Brooklyn, moved to the burbs when I was a kid)?  Or that the opinions of someone from a sleepy commuter town that lost more people that day then in the Korean War don't count becuse they only worked in Manhattan, and did not live there?</p>
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Discussion starter · #118 ·
<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Xavier Dan Q</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/70021/the-building-of-a-mosque-in-proximity-to-ground-zero/100#post_1944165"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p> </p>
<p>But what bothers me about this whole thing is that American Muslims who want to build a mosque are somehow being linked to the fanatical Mideastern Muslims who attacked the WTC on 9/11.</p>
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<p><br>
YESYESYES!</p>
 
<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Xavier Dan Q</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/70021/the-building-of-a-mosque-in-proximity-to-ground-zero/100#post_1944165"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p> </p>
<p>But what bothers me about this whole thing is that American Muslims who want to build a mosque are somehow being linked to the fanatical Mideastern Muslims who attacked the WTC on 9/11.</p>
<p> </p>
<p><br>
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<p><br><br>
Apparently they all know each other.</p>
 
<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Xavier Dan Q</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/70021/the-building-of-a-mosque-in-proximity-to-ground-zero/100#post_1944165"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p> And all sides agreeing to move the site would now most probably be the best solution.</p>
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<p>Yes!  This is what I was trying to say all along!  I guess Litch just said it much better than I did. </p>
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<p>Me be a Engineer and me be no good with wordses, so nobody be understooding me.</p>
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