[Yo Sake]

I am training for my 3rd marathon. I really like his programs - this is 2nd time using his 55mpw plans and also I used his programs from 'Road Racing for Serious Runners' for a full/half, with good succeses.<br><br>
My question is related to VO2 max runs.<br>
It is very difficult to bring my HR up to the suggested level during VO2 max run. I can do the suggested pace but HR barealy clear the LT level. My HR at LT is 171 (lab tested) and a suggested HR for VO2max run is 174~180+. HR sometimes hits at the lower end of this range toward the end of each interval but ave. is nowhere near this. I do often feel my legs are not moving quickly enough (just plain tired from other runs?). I do take easy days easy. As for long runs, I tend to run faster than 20%~10%+MP but HR is still an easy zone. Am I lacking leg strength to push harder? Should I slow down my long runs to do the speedworks more effectively? Or is this rather common during a hard marathon training?<br><br>
Thanks for your advice.<br><br>
Yoshiko

 

[alan fletcher]

have you tried shortening the rest between each interval?

 

[hawk765]

How are you hitting the intervals timewise? I don't train with a hrm, but use the suggested times in the appendix of the book for each of the interval distances. My interpretation of the purpose of this work is that you are training other muscle groups (i.e. fast twitch) to take over when your legs are toast at the end of the marathon, so that may account for the feeling of leg fatigue?<br><br>
I'm strictly a low tech runner - I do all of my runs at 4:30 AM, so I just get out there and do the best that I can with these runs (heck, I'm lucky if my shoes are tied and my watch is on!). At the end of my last marathon, when I was really pushing to hit my time goal, I can remember thinking that I was using the same muscle groups as when I did the interval work in training.<br><br>
I may be way off base, though and someone may come and repossess my copy of Advanced Marathoning!

 

[Yo Sake]

No, I need every second of the recovery<img alt="sad2.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/sad2.gif">. If I shorten it, I am sure I won't be able to keep the interval.... My HR recovers all the way down to easy pace between the interval. Is this a right way of doing interval?

 

[Yo Sake]

Yes I am hitting the intervals timewise.<br><br>
I have never thought about fasttwitch muscles being needed toward the end. Thanks - definately something to think about to when slowtwitch muscles are spent.

 

[Mailbox Head]

My guess would be that if you're basing you VO2max paces off of your goal marahton time, that they would be a little slower than if you were basing them off of a 5k. It would make sense then that you wouldn't quite be hitting your lab tested thresholds.<br><br>
I would suggest then on these to either just go with the Pfitz times suggested and use the HR data as extra information, or to go just by the HR data. It wouldn't be rare for you to struggle at holding threshold pace for the entire time listed by Pfitz at first because his schedules can be ambitious, but given time you should get there.<br>
I've never used HR training for anything beyond base work, but given your situation, the best thing to do would probably be to do the intervals by HR, then later compare them against what Pfitz says you should do as a gauge of your goal time.<br><br>
Sorry- that was a lot of rambling, but I think I may have slipped a point somewhere in there.

 

[roots]

Yo sake-<br><br>
What length interval are you talking about?<br><br>
If I remember correctly, Pfitz has 600m intervals on his plan. Depending on your ability, the 600m @ VO2Max will take 2-3 minutes (at most.) I'm not sure you will approach VO2Max in terms of HR (or 98-100% of THR) in a 2-3 minute workbout. Maybe in a long string of them, but probably not.

 

[alan fletcher]

it's probably gonna take about 2mins to get up to the appropriate HR, so you need to do short/incomplete recoveries. the goal of the VO2max workout is to maximize the time spent at VO2max effort. the alternative is to obviously do longer intervals, which means you can have longer, more complete recovery between. Daniels recommends intervals of 3-5mins, with recoveries no more than the interval time. (good info in Chapter 8 of Daniels' Running Formula)<br><br>
personanly i would much prefer 1200s with a longer recovery than doing 600s.

 

[coacht]

You should be doing an interval, at 5k pace, that last longer than 2 minutes, but can go as long as 5 minutes as it takes 2 minutes to get to maximum aerobic capacity. Daniels suggest 1,000m intervals for women and 1,200m intervals for men. The recovery time should be less than or equal to the time spent running. So - ideally, you'd run something like a 4-5 minute interval with a 2-3 minute recovery.

 

[roots]

Good answers Alan and CoachT. In my experience, I'm more in tune with Daniels methods and terminology than Pfitz. I know the suggested I-pace workbouts are 3-5 minutes, too. But the original post asked about Pfitz methods. Pfitz has some 600s and 1000s on his "VO2Max" workouts.<br><br>
Terminology-wise, what one coach calls "VO2Max" the other calls "Interval Pace" workouts. We know that this pace is near equivalent to one's best 5k pace, or a pace where one experiences VO2Max.<br><br>
Pfitz trainers, correct me if I'm wrong, but perhaps there is a misnomer with relating VO2Max workouts with achieving VO2Max in the shorter intervals. Daniels explains it well that there is a cumulative effect, as the number of intervals increase, and the time spent at VO2Max accrues as the workout goes on.<br><br>
It will help to know what workout Yo Sake did when he measured his HR.

 

[Yo Sake]

Thanks all. First of all, Yo Sake is a woman<img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"><br><br>
The intervals I was talking about is 600 and 1000m (so far that is all on his plan; but 1200 will be this Wed). I haven't run 5K for a while but I am guessing the pace based on the most recent 10K (in Oct). You guys are right, it is probably difficult to bring my HR to high enough in 2-~3minutes of an interval after a full recovery. Also, so far all intervals have been on dreadmill due to snow/icy condition. It looks like 1200m on Wed will be no different. You never know how accurate DM is anyway. With that, I should probably focus on HR, not the pace, to get a maximus effect out of a speed workout. Thanks for a good discussion.