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Do you have any of the training books like Pfitz or Daniel's?? They seem to have pretty good training methods.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I have Daniels' book. My impression is that it's geared more for the younger runner, i.e. two quality workouts back to back.
 

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Alex, any of these off the shelf programs; Daniels, Pfitz, etc. are only guide lines.<br>
If you have Daniel's book and like the sound of his 5km. program then take it on and adapt it to suit yourself. For example you mention two back to back quality sessions. You may consider doing only one day's quality, or halving the quality session and running on both days.
 

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They just list the 3 hard work-outs, you perform them sometime during the week. I'd have a hard time believing that Daniels would suggest back-to-back hard workouts. My experience is that he tends to list the 2 important workouts of the week and you schedule what to do in the remaining 5 days whether it be nothing, running easy, or cross-training. So with 3 hard workouts, you figure out what you want to do with the 4 days.<br><br>
Although, I "do" think your perception is correct that the workouts, intensities, etc. were developed by working with younger runners, and personally I started doing what Ziggy suggested as use them more as a guidline, knowing already what my own strengths and weaknesses are. (I definitely could not hit the R paces or I paces that I probably could have when I ran track in high school)<br><br>
That said, I do remember reading that some coaches "believe" that their kids perform best with racing back-to-back and maybe this is getting incorporated. Unless Daniels' has changed and adhered to this philosophy, I'm pretty sure he means for you to do one of the workouts suggested, take 1-2 easy days and do the second hard workout of the week, another 1-2 days, hard workout. Listing just key workouts gives more flexibility for you to schedule your week, or if after a hard workout, you don't feel on.....take 3 days off. When your day to day schedules are given, people tend "not" to sway, even when their bodies say "don't run hard, you need an extra recovery day"
 

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Keith:<br><br>
Great goal and good luck with it.<br><br>
I just finished a 5k series, and got a ton of training feedback from some fast local guys (including a 16:0x masters guy) so maybe i can help.<br><br>
I looked at some of what Daniels and particularly Pfitz had to offer, but I think the 5K got short shrift in their books. Some of the workouts did nothing for me. Like Pfitz repeats this 2x2k workout. What's that? Under-distance, and at what pace? Just under 5K? I dunno, I treid it a few times and it did noting for me.<br><br>
Here's what I did, and I'll try to lay it out as it transitioned.<br><br>
1) Started with a decent base 50ish /week + a weekly 5m LT run.<br>
2) Started adding low numbers of V02 reps e.g. 3x1200 with equal time rest, just to get used to the track work.<br>
3) Added 3x1 mile track workout at or below 5k pace<br>
4) Added 8x800 at mile to 3k pace with 60-70% rest and dropped the LT run<br>
5) Keep a weekly 90-120 minute long run and a 0 day<br><br>
So by the end, a typical week for me looked like:<br><br>
Sat: 8x800 at 3K pace with 60-70% rest<br>
Sun: 13m progression run<br>
Mon: Off<br>
Tues: 6 ez<br>
Wed: 4x1m at 5k pace with 80% rest<br>
Thu: 6ez<br>
Fri: 9ez<br><br>
If I was beat up, some weeks I would only do I track workout, or do the long run at an easier diatnace pace. Depending on schedule, there's really no need to do 2 days hard in a row.<br><br>
Feel free to email or PM if you want to talk more. That type of schedule took me from 17:30 to 16:30.
 

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Here's another 2c, and a alternative opinion. I've been running, racing, and coaching for years, and approaching 50 can still break 18. Phillytom, I'd say that's a killer week and its harder than I would have done in my late 20s or early 30s (resembles college era training, which in hindsight was way way too hard).<br><br>
Here's an alternative-50 mpw is a good base, if you can do more (50-70, all the better)<br><br>
Sat 4 X 800 at 3k pace (with 60-70% recovery) or 4-5 X 400 at 1 mile with 400 m jog.<br><br>
Sun. I like the progression run<br><br>
Mon. Off or cross train<br><br>
Tues. easy 6, fine<br><br>
Wed. at most 3X1 mile or 4 X 1200 or 5 X 1000 at 5k pace with 60% recovery<br><br>
Thurs. easy 6<br><br>
Fri. easy 9<br><br>
Then the following week<br><br>
Sat. do either mile pace or 3k pace workout (i.e., alternate from previous week)<br><br>
Sun. 10-14 miles (10 miles at a good aerobic effort approaching marathon pace or 13-14 easy effort; alternate these with the progression run).<br><br>
Mon. off<br><br>
Tues. 6-8 miles<br><br>
Wed. tempo run (4 miles at 5k pace + 20 sec or up to 40 min at ~1/2 marathon pace or maybe a little slower)<br><br>
Thur. 6 miles<br><br>
Fri. 8-9 miles<br><br>
etc.<br><br>
One of the most important things that you have to consider as a masters is recovery time. Those hard workouts are tough to bounce back from. In my early 40s, I'd try to do 4X1 mile at 10k pace, with the last mile approaching 5k, and it would take 10 days to two weeks to bounce back. Meanwhile, you're losing time and risking injury. The key is to keep your aerobic base humming along while you do just enough speed and VO2 max to keep sharp. And as you get older (mid-late 40s), I'd suggest doing even less speedwork than above. These days I do half or less compared to one of your typical training guides, while keeping the overall mileage up to a pretty decent level.<br><br><br><br>
 

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Wilson:<br><br>
Interesting changes.<br><br>
I should have pointed out that I am 32 so I have no experience with any changes in recovery for >40.<br><br>
For the 5k I have become a fan of over-distance in the intervals. I don't know if this is because I cannot restrain myself from going out too fast on race day or just that I got a lot out of spending more time in an individual workout at 5k pace.<br><br>
I think I saw a pretty significant difference when I went from the 3x12s to 8x800s and 4x1s.<br><br>
Thanks for the ideas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Thanks for the input. I may try something like two cycles of Wilson's workouts (one month total), followed by one week of PhillyTom's, then an easy week with a 5k race at the end.
 

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The female winner in my last 5K was in my age group, 30-35 ish (not sure) and she ran it <b>16</b> minutes plus a few seconds.<br><br>
I'd like to know her training plan.
 

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Philly, your schedule is fairly close to what I was doing at your age--yes you can get away with a lot more at 32 compared to 40s. Still, the 8 X 800 at 3k is a real tough workout. I'd sometimes do 3 X 1200 at 3k, and then maybe finish with an 800 or 600 or maybe a couple 400s, and I'd be in pretty much a gasping heap after that. Hard to say if those extra reps helped or not. So what I'm saying no matter what age, try to leave some room in the tank so that you finish the workout feeling refreshed and thinking that you could do at least one more. Save that extra effort for your races.<br><br>
Bux, you're altitude right? A low 16 at altitude is national class for women--a very very good time.
 
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