So I ran my first ultra last year, the VT50. Earlier in the year, from April through June, I built my miles up with my long runs at around 3 hours. I tried to keep my heart rate below 155. At that point I bit on the low heart rate training mentality and gave that a swing for the next 10-11 weeks till VT. During my three hour long runs earlier I started to get nauseous towards the end. Duiring my low hr training, I ran a 50K and a 26 mile training run and didn't experience any. During the last 15 miles of VT, I got very nauseous. I ran the whole race at heart rates of 150-165. All that is an aside but lets you know the thinking behind my question. What do you all think of the idea of doing all my training at heart rates between 150 and 160, except for maybe slowing down on longer runs, just running easy? My thoughts are that my body will adapt to running in that heart rate range and will be more efficient at eliminating wastes and making for more comfortable races. I hypothesize that my nausea was due to metabolic stress and waste buildup. Still trying to figure the whole thing out as I thought I had my nutrition down. Another question in that vein: does HEED have electrolytes in it? That's what I drank during VT. Let me hear y'alls thoughts on the training question. Thanks.
Training question
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Buddo, I'll start with your last question first, HEED stands for "High Energy Electrolyte Drink", I've used the product for years with good results. I don't believe that your low HR training is what was giving you problems, the only times that I have experienced stomach problems is at high altitude and when I start to get dehydrated. The key to going long is to take care of business early on in the race by getting the proper amount of nutrition and staying properly hydrated. I found out a lot about hydration from the medical director at Western States when I turned white and felt nasious about half way through the race, once you start to feel sick you need electrolytes to open your stomach or all of that water won't be absorbed and will just slosh around in your stomach until you puke it up. You don't mention if you mixing the HEED as recommended or if you were cutting it with more water.
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any time i have had HEED, i have gotten sick and thrown up. Needless to say, i do not drink it anymore! I know a lot of people who have said that about HEED as well. Its one of those either love it or hate it products, because so many people do rave about it.<br><br>
I would experiment with different combinations of drinks and electrolyte tablets and see if that helps with the nausea. How much were you eating/drinking on those long runs and at VT?
I would experiment with different combinations of drinks and electrolyte tablets and see if that helps with the nausea. How much were you eating/drinking on those long runs and at VT?
Well, I wasn't mixing my own. I was drinking what was at the aid stations, two cups and a cup of mountain dew, few fig newtons or pb&j squares. I drank at every one. It probably was electrolyte problems as my legs were cramping, but that may be due to toxic overload from running at a higher than normal, at least for me, heart rate all day. I did all my homework in the year prior in regards to nutrition and hydration. I experimented alot. I drank 20 oz. per hour of water and used NUUN tabs for electrolytes. I ate fig newtons, cereal bars, pretzels, all green lights.<br><br>
What about my heart rate hypothesis/question? Will running all my runs at hr 150-160 prepare me for ultras, leading my body to be more efficient at that pace?
What about my heart rate hypothesis/question? Will running all my runs at hr 150-160 prepare me for ultras, leading my body to be more efficient at that pace?
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A lot of people do have problems with HEED, without a doubt. I'm fine with it,<br>
but I can tolerate most anything. I'd be surprised if there was any relationship<br>
at all with your keeping your HR low in training. I do all of my training at very<br>
low heart rates, even 25 beats below my 50 mile race heart rate. I do, however,<br>
run road marathons quite often, and they make for good speed work. One thing<br>
is for sure concerning stomach issues and nausea - it may take you 5 or more<br>
ultras before you really learn what works for you nutrition-wise and for your<br>
stomach to get used to taking in substantive quantities while you are running.
but I can tolerate most anything. I'd be surprised if there was any relationship<br>
at all with your keeping your HR low in training. I do all of my training at very<br>
low heart rates, even 25 beats below my 50 mile race heart rate. I do, however,<br>
run road marathons quite often, and they make for good speed work. One thing<br>
is for sure concerning stomach issues and nausea - it may take you 5 or more<br>
ultras before you really learn what works for you nutrition-wise and for your<br>
stomach to get used to taking in substantive quantities while you are running.
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Alot of people will probably grill me for saying this, but don't worry about your heartrate. Just run at a pace that feels good on any given day. Run fast when you feel like running fast, and slow when you want to do that. Training like this, you'll become familiar with what effort level you can put out for a given distance and still finish strong.<br><br>
As for the stomach issues, experiment in training to find what does and doesn't work. You'll even find that what works for a bunch of races in a row, will suddenly make you sick as a dog. At least, that's what I've found to be true. The "formula" seems to be a constantly changing thing. I use Succeed electolyte capsules, drink mostly water (in races 50 miles or less), and get most of my calories from gels. When running 100's, my nutrition plan changes, with the addition of solid foods, and whatever sports drink mix I can stomach at the time.<br><br>
Another thing that will help you out, is working your long runs up into the 5 and 6 hour range before taking on a 50 miler. Again, these are simply things that work for me, and everyone has thier own recipe for success. Good luck!---------------------JHolt
As for the stomach issues, experiment in training to find what does and doesn't work. You'll even find that what works for a bunch of races in a row, will suddenly make you sick as a dog. At least, that's what I've found to be true. The "formula" seems to be a constantly changing thing. I use Succeed electolyte capsules, drink mostly water (in races 50 miles or less), and get most of my calories from gels. When running 100's, my nutrition plan changes, with the addition of solid foods, and whatever sports drink mix I can stomach at the time.<br><br>
Another thing that will help you out, is working your long runs up into the 5 and 6 hour range before taking on a 50 miler. Again, these are simply things that work for me, and everyone has thier own recipe for success. Good luck!---------------------JHolt
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That's funny (and this is the usual rule in the ultra community) - you and I are almost<br>
exact opposites! I'm a strict heart rate trainer (so strict for so long that I don't<br>
have to worry much about it anymore but I'll use it to stay right on my boundary<br>
in races and I use it to gauge my training progress), I take no gels, s-caps, or anything<br>
that's not food (or junk food) and my drink of choice in races is Coke (but when that's<br>
not available, I'll take whatever sports drink is there). I do take in salty foods.<br>
I had no choice for the heart<br>
rate training however because I was just constantly getting injured because what I<br>
thought was easy was anything but and my times all sucked until I started using that<br>
approach (took an hour off of marathon time in a bit over a year and over 2 hours off<br>
of 50 mile time in one year with it - stopped getting injured as well).
exact opposites! I'm a strict heart rate trainer (so strict for so long that I don't<br>
have to worry much about it anymore but I'll use it to stay right on my boundary<br>
in races and I use it to gauge my training progress), I take no gels, s-caps, or anything<br>
that's not food (or junk food) and my drink of choice in races is Coke (but when that's<br>
not available, I'll take whatever sports drink is there). I do take in salty foods.<br>
I had no choice for the heart<br>
rate training however because I was just constantly getting injured because what I<br>
thought was easy was anything but and my times all sucked until I started using that<br>
approach (took an hour off of marathon time in a bit over a year and over 2 hours off<br>
of 50 mile time in one year with it - stopped getting injured as well).
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I began using HEED because it had a great electrolyte content and good carbs - no sugar, and it was very very cheap. The taste is funky. In both flavors, they sweeten it with Xylitol which is mostly used in toothpaste and dentist offices! Not a good taste association.<br><br>
I'm currently loving their Unflavored HEED, which is almost tasteless. Tastes like stale beer by itself, I use it in black tea mixing it with their Sustained Energy for 2+ hour runs. Their products are simple good nutrition, except for that Xylitol which is very odd. Also, Hammer is a total supplement pusher, for good or bad. I probably have recieved 20 lbs. of junk mail from them in the last year. Despite that I highly recommend Hammer's Unflavored stuff if you like the drinkable electrolite strategy.
I'm currently loving their Unflavored HEED, which is almost tasteless. Tastes like stale beer by itself, I use it in black tea mixing it with their Sustained Energy for 2+ hour runs. Their products are simple good nutrition, except for that Xylitol which is very odd. Also, Hammer is a total supplement pusher, for good or bad. I probably have recieved 20 lbs. of junk mail from them in the last year. Despite that I highly recommend Hammer's Unflavored stuff if you like the drinkable electrolite strategy.
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...... now I know why this stuff makes me barf..... don't care for the dentist either.<br><br>
I do Nuuns these days...... plink plink fizz<br><br>
as for the low HR thing I'm with jholtthief...... do what feels comfortable, mix it up lots....<br><br>
as for solids.... whatever's on the table with the exception of PBJ's ..... so when I get to the VT50 AS with heed/pbj's ...... I keep going!<br><br>
not sure there's too much of a connection between the low HR & the digestion problems...... but what do I know<img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"><br><br>
the experiment continues......
I do Nuuns these days...... plink plink fizz<br><br>
as for the low HR thing I'm with jholtthief...... do what feels comfortable, mix it up lots....<br><br>
as for solids.... whatever's on the table with the exception of PBJ's ..... so when I get to the VT50 AS with heed/pbj's ...... I keep going!<br><br>
not sure there's too much of a connection between the low HR & the digestion problems...... but what do I know<img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"><br><br>
the experiment continues......
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do you know how many calories you were getting at VT50 per hour? Were you urinating? If so, how often? I am going to assume that the stomach/nausea was more related to nutrition and/or hydration than the HR hypothesis. What were you eating while training?<br><br>
That is funny about HEED and the dentist, because i swore it tasted like the flavored flouride the dentist put on my teeth as a child, which always made me gag <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif"><br><br>
I drink water only and Succeed! caps. I had always had success with Gatorade, believe it or not, but last year it was causing me severe thirst. A few years ago i made the connection of stomach issues and too much sugary foods at the aid station, opting for pretzels over m&ms made a huge difference. For the past year+ I have just been supplying myself with my own food and drink at all my ultras and even though it is a hassle, it is worth the effort, except if your drop bag gets lost <img alt="wink.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/wink.gif"> I eat almonds, raw food bars, raisins, fruit and vegetable juice blends, granola, etc.
That is funny about HEED and the dentist, because i swore it tasted like the flavored flouride the dentist put on my teeth as a child, which always made me gag <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif"><br><br>
I drink water only and Succeed! caps. I had always had success with Gatorade, believe it or not, but last year it was causing me severe thirst. A few years ago i made the connection of stomach issues and too much sugary foods at the aid station, opting for pretzels over m&ms made a huge difference. For the past year+ I have just been supplying myself with my own food and drink at all my ultras and even though it is a hassle, it is worth the effort, except if your drop bag gets lost <img alt="wink.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/wink.gif"> I eat almonds, raw food bars, raisins, fruit and vegetable juice blends, granola, etc.
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I try to avoid solids all together at races. Solids are typically comprised of COMPLEX Carbs which takes a good load of energy to digest and in turn, use for energy. I just wrote a post on my blog about my nutrition plans at my races. Check it out at <a href="http://www.sherpajohn.blogspot.com" target="_blank">www.sherpajohn.blogspot.com</a> (shameless plug).<br><br>
I HATE heed... every-time I've had it my stomach expanded like a balloon and I got VERY nauseous and sick. I drink Succeed! Clip 2 on anything over 50 miles and prefer Succeed! Ultra for anything UP to 50 Miles. The drink has electrolytes AND Carbs in it. Nuun is good but has ZERO Calories and ZERO Carbs... not really doing you any good there.<br><br>
I also eat Gels and Drink BOOST or Ensure. Just look at the nutritional information of these drinks and see how many Carbs and Calories are in each Gel or protein shake... these things are all easily consumed, simple carbs so they are easily digestible and pretty minimal to have in a drop bag or with your crew.<br><br>
Heart Rate?? I've always thought that as long as mine is beating, I'm doin good. I've never even used Heart Rate training procedures or anything. I'm with Mr. Holt.. if you are running at a comfortable pace, keep running at that pace.. you'll get there.<br><br>
SJ
I HATE heed... every-time I've had it my stomach expanded like a balloon and I got VERY nauseous and sick. I drink Succeed! Clip 2 on anything over 50 miles and prefer Succeed! Ultra for anything UP to 50 Miles. The drink has electrolytes AND Carbs in it. Nuun is good but has ZERO Calories and ZERO Carbs... not really doing you any good there.<br><br>
I also eat Gels and Drink BOOST or Ensure. Just look at the nutritional information of these drinks and see how many Carbs and Calories are in each Gel or protein shake... these things are all easily consumed, simple carbs so they are easily digestible and pretty minimal to have in a drop bag or with your crew.<br><br>
Heart Rate?? I've always thought that as long as mine is beating, I'm doin good. I've never even used Heart Rate training procedures or anything. I'm with Mr. Holt.. if you are running at a comfortable pace, keep running at that pace.. you'll get there.<br><br>
SJ
Calories per hour in training=220 or so per hour. Simple sugars like fig newtons and Trader Joes cereal bars. Never had any problem. The only thing different during the races was the heed and Mt. Dew. I thought it could have been caffeine intoxication. I've felt that way after downing a large diet Coke at a theater once. At the race, unsure of calories. Downed 2 cups heed, 1 of mt. dew per station plus a couple pb&j squares or fig newtons. I'm guessing around 250 or so per hour or so.
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I think the big problem you had is that you are low on electrolites. Throwing up and cramping point directly to not getting enought sodium/potasium. Your calories seem a bit low to me as well. Try upping your calories to closer to 300/hour. Use a higher electrolite drink, like powerbar endurance, and experiment with scaps or endurolite tabs. Oh yea, get your long runs up to the 5-6 hour range before tackling a 50 miler. Have fun, the best part of doing an ultra is all the training!
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Buddo... I'm just wondering how you figure that a fig newton or PB&J is a "simple sugar"? Understand the amount of energy it takes for your body to break those foods down in order to simply digest them... where-as something else (preferably in liquid or gelatinous form) is more easily digested AND is absorbed MUCH quicker. Food for though.. different strokes for different folks of course...<br><br>
But I'll tell you.. I preached and preached to RunlongVT until he actually got away from the solids and onto some liquids himself and HE noticed the difference. And who taught me all about it and convinced ME off the solids?? KARL MELTZER <img alt="notworthy.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/notworthy.gif">
But I'll tell you.. I preached and preached to RunlongVT until he actually got away from the solids and onto some liquids himself and HE noticed the difference. And who taught me all about it and convinced ME off the solids?? KARL MELTZER <img alt="notworthy.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/notworthy.gif">
Good advice all. Thank you. Maybe I didn't phrase my original post well. I was doing three hour long runs in my training at higher heart rates and was getting sick. I switched to low heart rate training and it stopped. I had done a 50 K three weeks prior to VT, and a 26 miler two prior. The 50K took 8 hours as I was keeping hr below 140. The 26 miler took 5+. I also had at least a half dozen 4-5 hour runs in the last ten weeks prior to VT as well.<br>
I will bite on the liquid calorie intake. I just bought a beautiful Golite VO24 backpack that is hydration compatible and will be adding a 3 liter tank to it. It also has two pockets for bottles, one on each side. I will use those bottles for energy drink, and fill the bladder with water. Any body have a good trick for how to carry energy drink mix to facilitate easy mixing? Any recommended drinks/brands?
I will bite on the liquid calorie intake. I just bought a beautiful Golite VO24 backpack that is hydration compatible and will be adding a 3 liter tank to it. It also has two pockets for bottles, one on each side. I will use those bottles for energy drink, and fill the bladder with water. Any body have a good trick for how to carry energy drink mix to facilitate easy mixing? Any recommended drinks/brands?
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I use Succeed! Clip 2 on runs over 50 miles and Succeed! Ultra on runs up to 50 miles. Typically I just put the drink mix in a small zip lock bag (how ever many doses I need into individual baggies) and carry em that way.
Hey John, have you ever tried concentrating it so you don't have to remix as often, say two -four "doses" per bottle or something like that? I also remember reading somewhere about somebody concentrating a mix in a little fuel type bottle and squirting it into their larger mixing 20oz bottle when it came time to mix a new batch.
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I have to admit that reading the back and forth on this post is why I love this forum.<br><br>
Since I have read many of the posts from the people writing them and know their successes I understand where they are coming from. If you jumped into this forum without any background and started taking notes you might hurt yourself trying to keep up.<br><br>
It looks like a consensus might be the often used, "it is an experiment of one".<br><br>
I will be doing that this weekend.<br><br>
Buddo, sorry for the hijack. Couldn't resist.
Since I have read many of the posts from the people writing them and know their successes I understand where they are coming from. If you jumped into this forum without any background and started taking notes you might hurt yourself trying to keep up.<br><br>
It looks like a consensus might be the often used, "it is an experiment of one".<br><br>
I will be doing that this weekend.<br><br>
Buddo, sorry for the hijack. Couldn't resist.
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