Thursday Rioting Fun - 2/17

Runninlaw · Feb 17, 2011

Hey all. My fun: I am home today because schools are closed. So many teachers called in sick the entire school district had to close. I am beyond mad about it and am likely going to get lambasted on Facebook today because I posted my opinion.

Oh well. My kids will be thrilled. In good news, it is going to be 50 degrees today, and I am hoping to get 15 miles in. Given there is no school, a sitter shouldn't be a problem later today.

gatorbob · Feb 17, 2011

I can understand that teachers are upset with the proposed cuts. This kind of thing is happening all over, with all different kinds of government workers. But what I don't understand is what they want instead. Obviously the status quo won't work. So something has to change. If it's not a reduction in salaries across the board, then it's a reduction in the number of workers. There's no two ways about it. The states can't just magically make money appear. (Only the feds can do that, which they do every single year). 
 
So what is it that your teachers are protesting for? Are they proposing alternate ways to cut the budget? If not, then they're wasting their breath...

Runninlaw · Feb 17, 2011

Madison is well-known to be incredibly liberal and we have protests all the time. I am not surprised about any of that. 
 
You are exactly correct in the issues - the state is attempting to fix budget deficits by taking away benefits and collective bargaining rights. But the alternative is massive job losses - there is no 2 ways about it. Wisconsin is leading the way right now, but there are many other states poising themselves to do the same thing. Apparently the feds are looking at doing it too. It sucks for teachers (and all the public workers affected by it) - no 2 ways about it. But they are not proposing any other ideas. And the frustrating thing is that many of them out there protesting do not seem to understand what is going on at all.
 
My opinion is that if teachers want to protest - great - but don't close our schools at 9:00 pm the night before and make thousands of families struggle to make ends meet. It is selfish, bullshit, and will no doubt not help their cause at all.

bard73 · Feb 17, 2011

Ohio is another state that is going through the same things as Wisconsin, though I think the protests have been less organized and extensive thus far. I need to read up more on the issue before offering a full opinion. I do think the proposals to take away collective bargaining in particular have such a polarizing effect that it will make real compromise and progress very difficult. 
Anyway, let's talk about more fun things. Delta.com says that Moonie's flight will arrive early, in just another 1/2 hour. <img alt="banana.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/banana.gif"> Of course, I have used up so much vacation in the past year (and that's with getting 3 weeks/yr) that I have to be stingy with days now or I will totally deplete things. So I am at work today. I'll be picking him up and taking him home, and then coming back to work. Since he took the red-eye, he'll need to sleep for a few hours anyway (because seriously, who sleeps well on the red-eye??), so I might as well save the vacation day. I have tomorrow off though.

NCRG71 · Feb 17, 2011

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Runninlaw <a href="/forum/thread/72651/thursday-rioting-fun-2-17#post_1984202"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a> Madison is well-known to be incredibly liberal and we have protests all the time. I am not surprised about any of that. 
 
You are exactly correct in the issues - the state is attempting to fix budget deficits by taking away benefits and collective bargaining rights. But the alternative is massive job losses - there is no 2 ways about it. Wisconsin is leading the way right now, but there are many other states poising themselves to do the same thing. Apparently the feds are looking at doing it too. It sucks for teachers (and all the public workers affected by it) - no 2 ways about it. But they are not proposing any other ideas. And the frustrating thing is that many of them out there protesting do not seem to understand what is going on at all.
 
My opinion is that if teachers want to protest - great - but don't close our schools at 9:00 pm the night before and make thousands of families struggle to make ends meet. It is selfish, bullshit, and will no doubt not help their cause at all.
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Word.
 
NYS is in big trouble too. The district that I live in (and am on BOE) is looking at cutting b/w 15-27 teaching postions alone. That's in addition to using 1 million of our fund balance and a 2-4% tax levy. Why? Because our teacher's union cannot see the big picture. They refuse to consider contributing to their health insurance to save their colleagues. We are one of the last regions in the state to not contribute. Other local districts have begun contributing nominal amounts, but not ours. I have had several teachers come to me and say they would be happy to pay something to help save jobs. Now the question is whether we can negotiate that with those who volunteer, if the union won't support it as a whole. The times they are definitely a-changing...

Litchfield Hills · Feb 17, 2011

((((RIL))) 

 
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by katholeenie <a href="../72635/2-16-2011-wednesday-warrior-fun/25#post_1984141"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> 
Oh, and I had a chiro appmt tonight
 
CHiro: are you in pain all the time?
Me: Um, no. I mean a sharp twinge here and there, and I can always kind of feel it, but.... it's not horrible. Why? 
Chiro: I would NOT want to be wearing your pain suit. A 3-stack is pretty good, but you've got FOUR that are really twisted, and the muscles are spasm-ing. You can't feel that*? I almost gave the award [for worst back of the day] out earlier, but you win by far.
Me: I do my best. <img alt="roll_eyes.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/roll_eyes.gif">
 
*I know it's there, but it's one of those acknowledge then ignore it kind of things. <img alt="dontknow.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/dontknow.gif">
</div>
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Sort of the same conversation I had with the ortho that looked at my carpal tunnel. And when I had my appendix out. In both cases, the docs were surprised I waited so long to see what was going on. In both cases, I was in pain, but I could deal with it. As opposed to my DD who has a bruise (whcih did not even black and blue) and ends up going to the hospital for xrays.
 
 <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by GatorBob <a href="../72635/2-16-2011-wednesday-warrior-fun/25#post_1984146"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> Great news, Brandy!
 
My best news is that I can finally see a portion of my lawn for the first time since Christmas Day.
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 I still have a good 2 feet of snow on my lawn. Can see some grass in my work neighborhood, however.
 
 
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by bard73 <a href="/forum/thread/72651/thursday-rioting-fun-2-17#post_1984213"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> 
Anyway, let's talk about more fun things. Delta.com says that Moonie's flight will arrive early, in just another 1/2 hour. <img alt="banana.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/banana.gif"> Of course, I have used up so much vacation in the past year (and that's with getting 3 weeks/yr) that I have to be stingy with days now or I will totally deplete things. So I am at work today. I'll be picking him up and taking him home, and then coming back to work. Since he took the red-eye, he'll need to sleep for a few hours anyway (because seriously, who sleeps well on the red-eye??), so I might as well save the vacation day. I have tomorrow off though. </div>
</div>
 
~~~~Safe travel vibes~~~~
 
State finances - our governor just proposed the largest tax increase in state history, combined with the largest cuts in state funded programs in state history. Yikes.

praecipua · Feb 17, 2011

But RIL, isn't that the point of a strike (or walkout as it looks like is going on now)? Inconvenience the crap out of everyone to make them pay attention and get involved. Teachers have a lot of responsibility and job losses will be terrible for the kids. So, do teachers take a huge pay cut as a sacrifice to keep schools running or do they keep their pay but some lose their jobs entirely and the ones left have even more students given fewer teachers? We all want the best teachers in the schools, but it's difficult to recruit really talented people when the pay is low and dropping. Governments cut taxes so people can have more in their pockets to spend, but that means that those who serve the public have to take the hit when there's less money to pay them. I can understand the difficulty of having to make last-minute arrangements for child care with an unexpected day off, but think of it as a snow day with invisible snow. That usually sends working parents scrambling and they don't blame the teachers for that. It's certainly a tough situation and both sides have valid points. It's likely that the teacher will lose, right? So, why not give them two days to express their anger peacefully and make use of our great democratic right to protest, and then they'll be back to educating your kids with less pay and fewer benefits. ...says the daughter of two retired public school teachers, one of whom was local union president and head negotiator.
 
/second day in a row of probably offending someone
 
It's 57*. It's supposed to get into the upper 60s. It would be nice if those temps would stick around for a while.

NCRG71 · Feb 17, 2011

I'm not offended by your post Prae.
 
What I have observed (in my region) is that the Teacher's Unions have been reluctant to recognize that the benefits that they have become accustomed to are now unaffordable. In my area, teachers are some of the highest paid employees. We are losing industry right and left (GM plant closed, Corning slowed down, colleges and the county are trimming their workforces also) and yet they insist that they still deserve free health care - and it's not a basic plan, it's a cadillac package. And I say this as a member of this very union also. We need to share the burden with our fellow taxpayers. If we were on my husband's health plan (through a private university) we would be paying 6k a year for less than decent coverage...we're not asking the teachers for nearly that much. Just a token contribution would go such a long way with our community.

solarpowered · Feb 17, 2011

I'm super swamped in school and out these days. Popped in here for a quick 5 second skim, so I don't really have time to quote and address all the teacher stuff directly. I apologize for that. However, my district is in real trouble right now, and many of the issues discussed here are things we're dealing with, too. Some random notes:
 
*Most of our discontent with the budget issues is the poor spending practices by the administration. For what teachers do, every day, in the lives of the public's children, we should be paid more than we are. Period. We care for the children, we teach them, we guide them to become thinkers, we prepare them for adulthood. We often spend more time with them on a daily basis than the parents do. 
 
That said, I chose this profession, and I know the pros and cons of it. I know that I'll never make the salary of, let's say, a doctor. But I chose this profession.
 
The problem is (and again, I'm only talking about MY district) our administration is cutting into the teacher's financials while maintaining UNNECESSARY administrative positions. We're talking $100,000+ salaries that aren't necessary. 
 
We already pay more into our benefits, AND our benefits got changed to a lesser coverage. We already took a pay freeze. We already took hits in positions. 
 
*Re: Unions. Most people believe that the collective bargaining is a problem. Let me offer another perspective. Right now, I know I'm not in competition with the other Language Arts teachers to make more money. Because of this, we collaborate ALL THE TIME. We share experiences, we share lessons, etc. It benefits the students for us to have this collaboration. We are better teachers because of this collaboration. The minute our salaries become a competition (i.e. based on how well I do vs. how well you do), that collaboration will cease. I will no longer benefit from conversations and sharing experiences with my peers. NOT good for the students.
 
*Re: Tenure. (An issue under fire in NJ) Our state union has already offered suggestions to the Governor to improve this system. I believe in the tenure system, but it is definitely flawed. It should take longer to get tenure. 5 years, not 3 yrs. + 1 day. Tenure needs to exist so that administrators/school boards can't fire teachers just to hire "cheaper" teachers year after year. 
 
There's more, but I've gotta get to class. <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif" style="width:16px;height:16px;"> Independent study is almost over.

gatorbob · Feb 17, 2011

New Jersey is another state in financial trouble. I read somewhere that New Jersey teachers, policemen, and firemen all have the highest average salary of any state in the country. And along with cushy pensions and health packages, that has the state in a huge financial hole. 
 
One of my friends at work is married to a teacher. I pay almost $100 per week for my health insurance. Those teachers are being asked to pay $50 per month and they are going nuts over that. The next big battle is with police and fire unions. And it's not just Republican governor Chris Christie. Democrat State Senate President Stephen Sweeney is trying to implement the same types of changes. I think they all realize that something has to be done. I have as much admiration for cops, firemen and teachers as anybody. But the state can't give away money it doesn't have. Lots of us in the private sector have lost our jobs or had large increases in our health insurance costs lately. It really only makes sense that the public employees face the same challenges. I'm not picking on any group. This is just the state of the country right now...

solarpowered · Feb 17, 2011

Bob - just a caution: don't believe everything you read. For example, our governor gave a speech a few weeks back that included several inaccuracies, including the fact that teachers, on average, receive a 4% pay increase each year. Inaccurate. This doesn't help. 
 
North Jersey school districts have higher salary averages than South Jersey. 
 
Just 2 quick thoughts. <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif" style="width:16px;height:16px;">
 
Gotta run.

Runninlaw · Feb 17, 2011

I like to see the teacher perspectives here. I'll be the first to say that our teachers are way underpaid (the good ones anyway - unfortunately there are too many terrible ones who are NOT in it for the kids). Unfortunately, the fact remains that they are state employees and most of our states are going bankrupt. Something has to give.
 
Personally, a year or so ago when there were a lot of cuts going on in my firm, I kept hoping if it came to me, I'd rather have a pay cut than get fired. We lost 401K matches and other benefits and many people got pay cuts. I'd much rather see that than get fired or see lots of my collegues get fired. I feel the teachers are taking a different approach here with such a hard line.
 
THat said - my beef with school closings has little to do with the actual politics of the bill. I thought it was selfish of so many teachers to make working families scramble and leave kids with no where to go. Fortunately our hospitals didn't have to close because our nurses didn't elect to do such a thing.

gatorbob · Feb 17, 2011

I started my post before I saw Solar's. I was thinking of her as I wrote mine, since she's a teacher here in my state (albeit a long way away from me). 
 
I completely agree with her that the biggest money-suck are the unnecessary-yet-high-paid administrative positions. But the problem is that those people are the ones who are in charge of everything, and they're not going to cut their own salaries or eliminate their own jobs. So when something needs to happen, it happens to someone else, i.e. the people already at the bottom of the food chain. 
 
My point is that money needs to be cut from somewhere. None of these unions (in my opinion) should be protesting against cuts unless they are offering viable alternaitves. Simply saying "don't cut my salary and benefits" won't get the job done. 
 
I know Christie has taken the brunt of the anger from the unions, especially the teacher's union. But like I said, many of the Democrat leaders in the state Congress are on board with him. Maybe not quite as drastically as him. But anybody whose head isn't in the sand knows that the state is in serious financial trouble. New Jersey already has one of the highest tax burdens on its people in the country (I think only New York is worse) and the state has lost a ton of money (multiple billions) in revenue because companies and rich citizens are moving away to escape the high taxes. So raising taxes more won't help. Budgets need to be cut from somewhere...

NCRG71 · Feb 17, 2011

One of our other challenges is the Triborough Amendment (i don't know if this is across the US or just state-specific) but it states that the current contract benefits stay in place regardless of how long it takes to negotiate a new contract. We have step increases built into the salary schedule in addition to the actual salary increases - so there are horizontal and vertical increases across the schedule. (So a 4% salary increase (09-10 to 10-11) + a 2% step increase (Year 12 to Year 13) actually is a 6% increase over the previous year) Because of this provision, teachers will continue to get their step increases despite no new contract with negotiated salary increases. In times like these, it actually benefits the unions to NOT negotiate.
 
Solar - I will be the first one to agree as to how hard teachers work and how much more has been added to your plates! I also agree that there are huge pockets of waste in many budgets - ones that we have worked very hard to eliminate or reduce in our district. But I also agree that when we were employed, we knew what we were getting into and that we were never going to get rich (regardless of how much our education cost us) in this profession.
 
It's not just a teacher problem. It's a public employee problem. It's also part of the national health care crisis and the insurance industry gluttony. I wish unions and Administration could get past the Win-Lose mentality to negotiations. I'm a huge fan of labor management committees and the Win-Win approach.

gatorbob · Feb 17, 2011

I found <a href="http://dcjobsource.com/teachersalaries.html" target="_blank">this chart</a> showing average teachers' salaries for the 2007-2008 school year. (The most recent data I could find). Here are the top states:
 
1) California $64,424
2) New York $62,332
3) Connecticut $61,976
4) New Jersey $61,277
5) Illinois $60,474
 
I wonder if it's a coincidence that these are some of the states with the largest budget defecits and worst financial crisises now...
 
Again, I'm not picking on teachers. Both my parents were teachers, for crying out loud. But my point is that if you're living large in the good times (booming economies) you may not be happy with what happens when the boom comes to an end...

NCRG71 · Feb 17, 2011

boB - the trouble with those averages is that the higher end salaries skew that number significantly. And does that number include benefits too? There are more teachers at the lower end than the higher end (at least in my region). I would be even more interested to see the starting salaries - in urban, rural, low-need, high-need districts. Our starting salary is just over 40k. There are very few jobs up here that start that high. Our region of NY was economically depressed even when the rest of the state was doing well. Now that the state is hurting overall, we are depressed even more. Unemployment is over 10%.
 
Another big piece is the number of unfunded mandates that came from No Child Left Behind. As I've said before, my entire job is the result of an unfunded mandate - I am responsible for all of the testing and data reporting that is necessary to meet the federal requirements. Not to mention the remediation that is also necessary to meet the federal benchmarks. The feds passed it to the states and there was NO money attached. What are districts supposed to do?
 
NCLB was named intentionally. Who on earth would vote to leave children behind?

bard73 · Feb 17, 2011

Bob- salary data alone is misleading, I think, if you don't account for cost of living. Aren't those the states where housing and other costs are also much higher?

phdatc · Feb 17, 2011

Well said Prae.
 
I know that Michigan is not too far behind some of the issues happening in other states currently. Our budget has been down for longer than many of the states, so we've been dealing with less money for longer. As a non-union employee of a public university, I have to say that I am more than willing to do my part, pay my part. I accepted a high dedicutable health insurance plan, I haven't had a pay increase in 2 years, etc. 
 
With BOTH sides taking a hard line, the truth is somewhere in the middle. The true leader finds that place.

Runninlaw · Feb 17, 2011

Teachers get paid really crappy here. I think starting pay is around $28K and average is in the mid $40s. I will never understand why such a low emphasis is placed by society on education. It has always confounded me.

solarpowered · Feb 17, 2011

In my district, teachers start at $44,000 give or take. In North Jersey, most schools start their teachers at over $50,000. Another thing to look at is the steps to the top -- what's the max you can make and how long does it take to get there? 
 
Re: administration's cuts -- This year, the administration is closing an entire wing of our school. That alone represents about 30 positions being lost. People losing their jobs. In one school. ETA: it is almost certain they will close an entire elementary school in our district as well, bringing the total # of positions lost to well over 80. 
 
They say the population decline is the trigger for making this move in the attempt to save money. I don't like it, but I see that side of it. The thing is, my classes now are about 20 kids per class, give or take a couple. With the close of this wing, my classes will all be at about 28-30 kids per class. That's 28+ twelve-years-old, hormonal kids in one class. That's 28+ kids I'm supposed to provide individual instruction to on their writing and reading skills on any given day in each class. That's almost 90 papers I have to grade every time the students complete a piece in my class, and 90 book reports. Who's getting the better attention paid to them, the kids in the class of 20? or the class of 28-30? Which kids get more of my time? 
 
The thing in all of this, is that parents should be furious. FURIOUS. 
 
I get that changes need to be made. But the changes that are being proposed, (most of) the cuts that are being made, the things being debated (and again, I'm talking in my area), and the outcome of all of this, lead to the STUDENTS being affected, and not in a good way. 
 
 
Realistically, if my salary didn't change for the next couple years, could I make it work? (IE, a multi-year pay freeze.) Of course. That's not the simple answer, though.

Thursday Rioting Fun - 2/17

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