[runninirish]

OK, I thought I had a great plan for this weekend...I needed to run 15 miles on Sunday with 12 at marathon race pace...well there was a 20k trail race on Saturday...GREAT! I'll run that for my 12 at race pace...knowing that the effort will be there even if the pace isn't quite race pace.<br>
Well the trails (as they should be) were terrible and I slipped and slidded my way through...so now my question...<br>
Should I got out today and hammer out a good 12 at race pace? Or just do an easy 13 which was my original plan?<br>
For what it's worth, I could barely run fast enough to get HR>135 through the last few k's of the race...very frustrating...thanks!

 

[roots]

Are you training for road marathon or trail marathon? I'd say that would dictate your training. 12 miles of marathon pace on trails sounds like a hard run! How do you determine MP, anyway?<br><br>
To your question, I say no need to try and make up the workout. Easy mileage should be sufficient.<br><br>
FWIW, I consider MP training runs lower on the priority scale than the other type workouts -- long (easy), tempo, and interval pace workouts.

 

[runninirish]

Sounds good...I was leaning toward an easy 13...<br><br>
I am calling MP my anticipated pace for my May marathon (road)...for me it's about 6:45. I only have 3 MP runs in my training schedule...so I thought it was important to do it...otherwise I agree with you (long, tempo, intervals are the important ones)...I'm using Pfizer 70...thanks...

 

[fox-runr]

I have to agree with roots. The thing is the MP is about practicing race conditions,else really, it has about zero value and would agree with roots again that it's less important than tempo, interval, long run, and maybe even add speed workouts. All these runs have a purpose of improving ability. MP runs do not, they are more of proving ability.

 

[Jim24315]

Interesting to see both you and roots make this statement. I have long felt the same way but thought to bring it up would be blasphemy. Long intervals and tempos seem to give me more bang for the buck. One that I especially like is to do a long warmup warmup and cooldown with some long intervals, e.g. 6 x 1600 at 10k-HM pace . The w/u and c/d are normal easy pace rather than jogging.<br><br>
Also, I believe that there is some real value in doing a long, easy run the day after a harder workout or short race. Some might consider this to be back-to-back hard efforts but I don't see it that way as long as the shorter, more intense workout is done the day before rather that vice versa.

 

[Flounder]

So when the elite marathoners do 30-35k @ MP in training - It is of no value? They just need confidence?<br><br>
The difference between T and MP is generally 20-25 seconds. Jack Daniels will have you running MP for long tempos. So if I run 20-25K @ MP - Jack would say that is T-Pace for that distance.<br><br>
I am just trying to understand.<br><br>
At a minimum I would say long MP runs build up your stamina @ MP. But ... If I had a limited amount of time to train for a marathon (I do) I would take T-Paced runs over MP runs.<br><br>
The one thing to keep in mind - There is no 1 run that will make or break your marathon training. It is an accumulation of all the stress over months/years that you put your body through. (Or in my case 7 weeks<img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif">). I'd just forget about it and move on with your training plan.

 

[Jim24315]

"I have long felt the same way but thought to bring it up would be blasphemy"<br><br>
See; it didn't take long to get a rise out of someone<img alt="notworthy.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/notworthy.gif">. MP and fast finish runs are in now.<br><br>
This one is probably more to the point and one that I agree with:<br>
"There is no 1 run that will make or break your marathon training. It is an accumulation of all the stress over months/years that you put your body through"<br><br>
Fwiw, I do some MP and fast finish runs, but the honest truth is that I have noticed more of a performance gain from some of the other stuff. Also, I've only run one marathon in past 14 years that I did ok in. The only real yardstick I have is races between 10k-30k. Just like to be contrary I guess.

 

[Flounder]

I am not in complete disagreement with the ideas<br><br>
I think the biggest benefit of long MP runs 20-30K is that I am pretty darn sure what I call MP is correct, Next it teaches the body to feel comfortable @ MP, but finally I do think that it adds endurance at MP. I believe this is one of the differences between most people who fall off sharply in the last 4-6 miles and myself who is able to hang on to MP (Very painful) to the end. The other things that I believe allows you to hang on is putting in lots of miles.<br><br>
I think the bigger the delta between T-Pace and MP the less benefit you will gain from it. If you call T-Pace 6:00 minute miles and MP 7:00 - MP runs will not be that usefull. But if T=6:00 and MP=6:20 they become much more useful.

 

[Flounder]

Its been awhile since any good discussion around here.<br><br>
I actually can physically notice a boost in ability more from over distancing than long marathon pace runs.<br><br>
Give me 2 weekends in a row with 30+ mile runs and 3 weeks later I will get faster.

 

[bhearn]

Interesting discussion. It's been a while since I read Pfitzinger, and my copy is not at hand... what does he say the benefits are of the MP runs?<br><br>
When I do them I try to do as McMillan suggests and make them "fast finish" runs: I do the last mile fast, ~10K pace, and the last quarter mile at an all-out sprint. This is very hard. But as Flounder says, knowing you can do this after a lot of miles at MP is a good thing. I ran the last mile of my most recent marathon at just off 5K pace.<br><br>
Anyway, after seeing this discussion I don't feel too bad about punting my 2nd scheduled MP run on Monday. I felt my legs were too beat up, and I think I was right. My MP run, last month, was fine, so already I am OK on the sanity check. And I will likely do a lot of the Georgia Marathon at target MP as a training run for Boston.<br><br>
In the past I've often found MP runs to be among the hardest workouts. Often I fail at the first one scheduled, then do fine at the following one(s).

 

[runninirish]



Interesting discussion. It's been a while since I read Pfitzinger, and my copy is not at hand... what does he say the benefits are of the MP runs?<br><br>
.quote]<br><br>
"These runs provide the precise physiological benefit of allowing you to practice the pace, form, and so on of race day. They're also a great confidence booster." (That's what Pfitzinger says) My 18 week program has all of TWO scheduled...so it's not like the program is built around MP runs...to me, training is about specicivity...what could be more specific than throwing in a MP med-long run a couple of times? I won't quit my t-runs any time soon though...

 

[SeaPig]

I miss the discussions, "Like this one" that was in the Mainstream section of Coolrunning. I have not found an area that normally have these discussions pretty much strickly on training. Are they out there? The community/social stuff is fine but not really what I am looking for.

 

[bhearn]

I miss that too. CR had both Basic Training and Mainstream Racing, and there was a lot more discussion going on each of those then there is here. Fortunately I need it less now than I did then, but I do miss it.<br><br>
E.g., it would be nice to have the "Sub-40 10K this year" group back.

 

[SeaPig]

<br>
I could organize a Sub-40 thread but I wonder where the best place to put it would be, if we could get a sub-forum more specific to Advanced Training or something similar. What does it take to create a sub forum?

 

[bhearn]

Well I think it was in Mainstream Racing on CR, so I think it would do fine just here in The Race... but it might be interesting to have a subforum; it could promote other topics.<br><br>
It does seem strange that there is exactly one forum on this whole site for "Here's where you talk about all things Running"... and that it's not even a very busy forum. Extreme Running and Multi-Sport always seem to be busier, oddly. The social forums I can understand being busier, but... ???

 

[NW Runner]

Yes, I miss those CR discussion as well. To add my two cents: I never do workouts at marathon pace. But I also train based on heart rate. Because I know what my true max HR is and I'm aware at what my lactate threshold range and VO2 max range are, I am able to "dial in" those ranges. I'll admit, when I run the first 13 miles of the marathon just below lactate threshold, it feels a bit "uncomfortable" because I've never run that pace during training. But when I kick it up the second half of the race and end up with a 1-2 min. negative split, I know the pace was right on for training I put into it. On the marathons that I've done poorly at (only two!), it was always because I was at lactate threshold too soon in the race regardless of what the actual mile split pace was.

 

[NW Runner]

Oh, and more more thing: I used to post mostly in the Competative Wire forum of CoolRunning. This was most likely area to generate input from "upper level" athletes, and I don't necessarily mean elite; rather, the ones who were serious about competing and had done their research. Perhaps the web designers of this site could add a similar area.

 

[SeaPig]

Maybe we could start putting a list together of members that would be interested in a Training specific (more than the basics) Forum. Add a link to several of the existing good threads to get the word out there and to accumulate a list members interested a specific forum. Once we get or find the right spot, let everyone know where it is with a PM message.

 

[SportiGrl]

I know this question was back in March ... but why would you follow a 12 mile race (as a LR) with another LR the following day to make up for less-than-desired pace? Unless you already do 2 LRs every weekend wouldn't that have a negative effect on your following weeks' training?<br><br>
And I also really appreciate reading and sometimes responding to threads about specific training ... I'm no expert and I have a lot to learn but I think all runs should have a purpose and knowing what that purpose is helps keep me motivated. I came here hoping to find a lot of the things I used to go to CR for ...<br><br>
And if you get that sub-40 10K thing up and running I'll be reading it ... I can't really think I'd be able to do that pace but getting back to 7:00 or under would be awesome ... concentrating on marathons a couple years has me worried that my 10K pace isn't what it used to be, lol ...