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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I see all these plans online, and hear people talking about doing runs at certain paces.<br><br>
I understand that you're supposed to know your marathon pace, or 5K pace, then use those times to base your runs.<br><br>
But, how do you do that AND know how fast you're running without having to do a bunch of math at the end of a run? How do you know how fast you're running "on the fly" (or, in my case,.... "on the crawl"<img alt="wink.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/wink.gif">.<br><br>
The only way I can tell what my pace is/was is to divide my time by distance or whatever....ok, I admit, I use the onlin pace calculators...when I'm finished.
 

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This is kind of a chicken or the egg question. Some people know their race times but do not have a sense of pace. Some people know how fast they're going but do not know how fast they can race. Some know both.<br><br>
If you run tempos and longer intervals and get a little fussy about the times and distances, then pay attention to some long runs and the consistency of pace, you will (eventually) get a sense of pace.<br><br>
Some people use their pace to estimate race pace and goals. Some people use their race pace to target training pace. Others, like me (and this is not recommended) use their race pace goals to set training pace.<br><br>
Add to this the pace calculators (like <span style="font-size:smaller;">McMillan) and a sense of whether you are a short or long distance specialist, and you can extrapolate.<br><br>
So throw out some data and let us guess and argue what your paces should or could be. Then you can decide.<br><br>
ETA: Or just buy a Garmin and look at it anytime.<br></span>
 

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I use race pace to target training pace but don't hold fast to the x-miles at marathon/5K pace etc. Really, I only use Mcmillan et. al. to determine how long my treadmill intervals should be at a given pace/speed. I tend to use HR depending on the workout I'm doing. Tempos are generally done Z3/Z4, intervals Z5, endurance work Z2/Z3, recovery Z1.
 

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You can teach yourself to "feel" pace. Practice on a track. Get to know what 8 minute pace feels like (or 9 or 16 or whatever). Run some laps at that pace when you're fresh and again when you're tired. Your brain will learn the cadences.<br><br>
Get used to evaluating "perceived effort". Know how hard it feels to run at different paces - how hard you're breathing, how much you have to push. You may not hit within five seconds per mile or anything, but you can know if you're at LT pace or marathon pace.<br><br>
Also, know landmarks. There's a granite mailbox post that's exactly one mile from my house in one direction. On any route going that way, I check my watch as I pass it - and again on the return - so I know at least my first and last mile pace.<br><br>
Or, like CiGra said, get yourself a tool. I run with a GPS watch. Constant pace feedback. It's an awesome tool.
 

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the track teaches you pace. When you run longer intervals especially. One of the tricks I learned last summer is to use the countdown timer on timex watches and set it for the 100 meter pace--so, if you are running an 90 second per 400 meters (6 min mile pace) then that's about 23 seconds per 100. You set the countdown at 23, push the button and the alarm should beep when you hit the 100 meter hash.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
The "feel" is what is missing in me.<br><br>
I do better with perceived effort.....but I don't know what FOR ME is the relationship between perceived effort and pace.<br><br>
I use the landmark option you mention...same thing, 1st/last mile of a certain route. Luckily it's one that has lots of potential out/back "legs" to easily make it longer or shorter, and I'll never be more than 2 miles from my start point.<br><br>
The other morning, I went out and my first mile was 12:37 (about what it usually is), it "felt" kinda hard, but it was the first mile and I know that it takes me a LONG time to warm up. The last mile was 11:30...SMOKIN' for me. It felt strong, but not hard, much easier than the pace would indicate. When I had that same feeling in a 10K race (nicely marked so I could glance at splits.... I never was near 11:30.<br><br>
So, if I were using my perceived effort...I would have been not just a few seconds off, but WAY off. (*shrug*).<br><br>
Getting pace after the fact is infinitely easier than figuring it out during.....<br>
it may just be a practice thing?<br><br>
In the pool, too...I don't know pace WHILE I'm swimming....I know effort. And, since the pace clock is visible enough, I can get frequent time checks...every 25 yds sometimes if needed. So, I get better updates.
 

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If you're on workoutlog and go to the daily log and enter your run...your average pace shows up after you save it. It's only visible on the daily one...now when you see your workouts for the week.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Yeah....getting it after the fact is easy....way easier than knowing how you're doing while running.<br><br>
For the longest time, I was happy just doing a distance with no walking....<br>
I didn't worry about pace.<br><br>
lol<br><br>
And, since I have only done 1 marathon so far.....SLOOOOOOOWWWWWW...... I'd have no idea how to get that pace again. It was HOT and 3 years ago! lol I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday, let alone how a massively long run felt 3 yrs ago.<br><br>
Anyway.....<br>
Is this just a normal part of the learning curve?
 

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Are you asking how to run an even pace?<br><br>
I'm good now at running even or sometimes a negative split (faster on the 2nd half of the run).<br><br>
For me...if I'm running hills, I will naturally be slower and gain speed as I hit flats...<br><br>
A lot helped me improve when I began HRT on the run. It helped me stay in a zone so to speak...I struggled a long time before it became more normal. Now Sheldon tells me not to worry about HR when I run and go by perceived effort.<br><br>
Sorry-I'm not helpful, am I.
 

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Sounds like you've convinced yourself you can't do it - so you can't.<br><br>
You're not gonna go out on the first try, say you're gonna run 11's, and hit the mile mark at 11:30. (Of course, you'll never actually hit it at exactly 11:30 - but I bet you can consistently do it between 11:15 and 11:45 - which is more than close enough.) It takes discipline, self awareness, and practice. But if you want to save the $300 on the GPS device, and it's important to you, you CAN learn to do it.
 

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It will come over time. I have a friend who's 65, and has been running for about 50 years or so. He once won a bet that he could run exactly 4 mins/km in a 10k race, only looking at a clock once. He finished the race in 40:01, or something like that. It won't happen overnight, but over time you will develop a better sense of pace. Try the track ideas mentioned above. If you can get onto a shorter track (a 200m indoor track, for example), you will get a bit more feedback on your pacing. Good luck.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Thanks all......<br>
yes...it seems to be a time thing....the more you do and think, the more you're aware, and then the more aware, the more control.<br><br>
T: I think the HRM is a good idea, because that's what got me into a groove in swimming....Ann would have me do sets where I'd "beep hi", "beep lo" or "not beep" to get me used to holding a consistent effort. Gradually, she started putting % to each of those ranges and now I'm more comfortable in the water.<br><br>
I think part of the struggle and confusion is that for so long, there was NO effort while running that was lower than 85 or 90%, that's how hard I had to work. It's starting to change a bit now, though.....I'm starting to see times that are the same, but the ease and comfort increase. So, when I feel the same effort now, I'm faster, it's just so sporadic that I can't plan for it...........yet.<br><br>
LRR....<br>
Yup...mental.<br>
That's me.<br>
I find that sometimes I have to really deconstruct things before they make sense to the point that they can be internalized. I had to FORCE myself to learn to ask questions about sets AFTER they were finished, unless I didn't understand what to do.<br><br>
My long run today will be laps around a known distance road. That will help I think, cause I can hit my splits at the same place each time. They'll be 2mile splits but that's ok.
 

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I had a really tough time with this when I first starting running. I always ran by my percieved effort. It didn't turn out very well. Either i was running way to fast, or I was just running to fast. I was constantly over training.<br><br>
I had to buy a GPS watch to slow my self down. I also got one with a heart rate monitor. I do use HR training on recovery days. It keeps me under control.<br><br>
Now I am pretty good at judging my pace, but I have the Garmin 305 as a crutch. It does help though as much as i travel to keep the distances where they need to be.<br><br>
Hope this helps.
 

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1!<br><br>
You CAN do this if you want. But you must be consistent in your running if you're not and you must start running timed workouts, either races, at the track, or known mileage markers. Do that for a month and you'll get sense of pacing very quickly.<br><br>
Me, I can have run for so long that I can run a pace unbeknownst to me and hold it to within 2 seconds for 20 miles if in a race or on a solo run or with one other person. And I say that regardless of what that pace is. I just dial in and stick with that energy output.<br><br>
I'm guessing your problem is not enough time running. If you stay consistent for a year or two, I'm guessing you will nail this. And by consistent I mean to the point where you're running 2-4 times per week plus a long run. Consistency is key.
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
I also put this in the workout thread.....<br><br>
Finallly got my long run in....<br><br>
Miles 1-2: 23:26.84<br>
Miles 3-4: 24:50.54<br>
Miles 5-6: 25:09.12<br>
Miles 7-8: 25:30.71<br>
Mils 9-10: 24:13.31<br>
Overall Pace: 12:19 (Faster than I've been doing on average)<br><br>
Except at the very beginning where I was quicker on my feet to get warm...<br>
and at the end where I picked it up...to get home and get warm...<br>
I had a consistent "feel" for the effort. Are these two mile splits THAT far off from one another?
 

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From my perspective a Garmin 305 would be perfectly suited for your needs. You would have instant feedback on both pace and HR. You would always know exactly how far you run allowing you to vary your route as you please. The Garmin will automatically record your mile split times, so you don't need to even think about it. The HR function will enable you to learn what your HR is at any given perceived effort.<br><br>
All in all it's a great tool!
 

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You'll be able to figure it out, but it just takes time and experience.<br><br>
What helped me was a tempo run exercise where I would mentally click it up one gear in my mind over a pre-determined distance (at this time, I didn't have access to HRM - this would help tremendously with your pacing should you go that route.)<br><br>
I would start with a warmup, and then notch it up what I felt was one gear over a certain distance, took note of how hard I was breathing, how easy/hard the effort felt, etc. and took a time split when I reached the pre-determined distance.<br><br>
Then I would repeat this procedure over and over again until I was close to my max speed, and follow the workout by a warm down at what I felt was an easy pace.<br><br>
I then compared these paces to the times I would be producing for actual races over various distances. While training paces may not match up exactly with race paces, I was able to hone it to where I wouldn't be going out at a 10K pace for a 12K or even a half-marathon race, for example.
 

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Before I got my Garmin, I was using the split button on my watch. I live where the city blocks are darn near one mile from traffic light to traffic light. I then trained to feel what a 8:00/mile pace would be or a 10:30 or whatever by hitting my split button and noting the time on my watch. By checking at known 1/4 mile and 1/2 mile locations I knew then to adjust pace accordingly.<br><br>
I use the Garmin now for HR management for long distance training, recovery and for pacing during intervals.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I think that pacing is going to be an overarching goal for me for the next few months. I'm doing my 2nd marathon in November....and I want to be able to do more than just "finish." Although, finishing is good,...I want to be able to have more control over my results than that.<br><br>
I've gotten some really great ideas.....<br>
and I'll talk to Sheldon about how to incorporate them the best way for me.<br><br>
My half is in a week......love the mile markers!<br>
Stitch
 

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I am pretty unscientific about the whole thing (and some would probably argue that's why I am not all that fast) but it works for me. I run entirely on feel on a scale as follows:<br><br>
Long/recovery runs: comfortable easy/medium (mind can drift from running)<br>
Tempo runs: comfortably hard (need to concentrate on task but can drift some)<br>
Race: uncomfortably hard right on the edge of can/cannot (need to fully concentrate)<br><br>
There seems to be a difference of about 1:00/mi pace between each level for me. Maybe I am just a Luddite.
 
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