Need training advice/program for first ironman

SeaPig · Nov 27, 2010

Hi all,
 
Long time member of Kickrunners/coolrunners but my first post to the multisport forum.
 
I just signed up for a full ironman sept. 11th Rev3s Cedar Point.
 
The good news... I have completed 8 marathons in the last 5 years, my weight is good at 164, my marathon times come in around 3:10 to 3:20, I did complete a training ride with my wife of 100 miles 3 weeks ago. I think it took us around 6:30 hours. I did complete the olympic distance swim and run on a relay team last summer.
 
The bad news is I dont bike much and swim less and will turn 47 this January although I have been pretty healthy over the last 5 years.
 
I am looking to just finish. Was thinking maybe around 13.5 hours but what do I know.
 
I was hoping to train for a fast marathon in the spring early april. Then hit the swim and bike. I do have an open water place to swim every other weekend and once a week.
 
Any thoughts and/or ideas on a training plan based on my background.
 
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Seapig/spkoest

pcsronbo · Nov 27, 2010

Congrats! And good choice of venue. I was there last year for the 1/2 iron distance and had a blast. They did it up right and I'll be back (although not next year as I'm doing IM CDA in June) 
 
Anyway, sounds like you may have the base overall, but sticking it together is another deal. Some tips, from someone who is doing his first 140.6 this june, but I've done several 70.3's (so take with grain of salt):
1. You need to bike, a lot, starting now. Doing 100 miles in 6.5 hours isn't bad, but extend that pace to 112 miles and suddenly you're getting close to the cutoff of 8 hours. Too close... if something goes wrong (flat, cramp, stomach issues), your race could be over before the run begins.
2. You need to swim outside soon as you can and as often as you can because a .9 mile swim and a 2.4miles swim are different. You need to get to the point where you can do 2.4 and feel like it was a nice warmup - with wetsuit (you'll need it)
3. Your run is going to suffer. So don't come in thinking you can rip off a 3:10. Be happy with a 4:10 or maybe even a 4:40, depending on how much time you can get on the bike... a strong bike will be the key to a strong run. Most people blow the run because of a weak bike.
4. Nutrition is going to be a bigger deal than you ever imagine. Start planning it out now. What does your body tolerate, not tolerate, etc. You're going to be out there a LONG time.
5. Forget a time goal. So many variables, just shoot for coming in before midnight

Else It will cause a cascade of bad decisions.
6. Did I mention the bike? Because a smart bike will allow a good run. For you in particular, with your strong run times, this is going to be more important. Mentally, you're going to be pissed with a 5 hour marathon I suspect - and that's what you'll get if you're not ready for the bike.
7. The bike on this venue is very mild. Another good choice! There's one steep hill... keep control or you'll blow your run.
8. If you haven't started your training plan here's some tips... and something to consider...
a. Get on a masters swim team/group NOW. You need to swim 3x/wk starting now. Work the distance up, but you need to get your body physiologically adapters to long swims
b. Since you're in my home state (I'm NW Suburb Chicago) it's already cold as hell so you need to get a darn good bike trainer and comfortable and inviting place to ride it. Because you need to be on the bike 3x/wk starting now. If money is no object, get a Computrainer. You can ride the course, in your house!
c. Cut back your running a bit unless you can make the time for this extra load.
d. If you really want a strong Iron race, you may need to ditch the fast marathon in April. Just saying you might have to pick your priorities here. Maybe you can make it work, but starting up bike/swim in May is too late. I think you will really suffer on the bike (and hence run).
e. Consider a tri group - there are many in the chicagoland area, but don't know where you are. A wealth of others to train with and get advice from is always good 
f. Consider a coach.
g. Get a 70.3 on the schedule 5-7 weeks before. Steelhead would be perfect. Racine would be fine. This will be a practice training day to see how well you are gluing it all together so far.
 
JUST ideas... clearly, if you're 18, male, unemployed, huge trust fund, no GF, and highly motivated you could do it all... but oftentimes life forces choices.
 
welcome to the journey! Stick around and post here, lots of free advice

SeaPig · Nov 27, 2010

Thanks for the advice!!!!

SeaPig · Nov 28, 2010

Purchased Triathlete magazine's
Essentional week-by-week training guide. - Matt Fitzgerald.
 
Seems to have a good 24 week (just tell me what I need to do) plan.

pcsronbo · Nov 28, 2010

Also consider something in the interim, as you have ~4 months until that would start - maybe focus on the basework - swim form (ala masters) and bike strength (spin class, trainer, weight room, and/or power training on the bike - Computrainer classes if you can)

cak73 · Nov 29, 2010

Quote:
<div class="quote-container">
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by SeaPig <a href="/forum/thread/71372/need-training-advice-program-for-first-ironman#post_1965522"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> Purchased Triathlete magazine's
Essentional week-by-week training guide. - Matt Fitzgerald.
 
Seems to have a good 24 week (just tell me what I need to do) plan.
</div>
</div>
 
I know a few people who have used plans from this book to successfully complete half- and full-iron distances.
 
 
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by pcsronbo <a href="/forum/thread/71372/need-training-advice-program-for-first-ironman#post_1965527"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> Also consider something in the interim, as you have ~4 months until that would start - maybe focus on the basework - swim form (ala masters) and bike strength (spin class, trainer, weight room, and/or power training on the bike - Computrainer classes if you can)
</div>
</div>
 
Ron is wise. Listen to Ron.
 
 
<img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif">

mrscoby78 · Nov 29, 2010

I have no advice. But GOOD LUCK!!!!!

Thor · Nov 29, 2010

Apologies in advance to say that I have far too little time to comment here like I want, but the gist is...
 
You have a substantial base going into this goal. Ironman, for you, being that you're background is running, is ALL about the bike. And with your background, you can and should train to not just complete this puppy but to instead train to finish well. Then race to finish. Sounds odd but that's the way to have resounding success in a debut (or even a one and only) Ironman. Train as if you will go for a good time, and then race as if you are out to finish. The premise is that you want a strong biking background between now and raceday to afford your running game to shine. It's all about the bike. Skip run speed work and all that happy stuff. Keep the spring marathon, and train for that properly, and then once that's done focus on the bike. Your run shape will hold pretty good as long as you're doing good stuff on the bike. Layer in swimming now. But you don't need to kill the swim because it really is the easiest thing of all to train for. I went from never swimming in my entire life to being able to swim 1.2 miles in a matter of months, and then I took that to 2.4 in few more months. Good luck, dude, you're already way ahead of the curve here. Just always remember that it is all about the bike. The stronger you can get, the closer to your ability you will run. If you train to survive the bike, you will just survive (or maybe not) the run no matter what kind of run shape you are in. And this doesn't mean spending all of your waking hours on the bike. Cycling and run training are not the same. It's not just more more more with the bike. Ride no more than three times a week but make them all quality. You'll kick ass.

1Topodope · Nov 29, 2010

Not to take over the thread, but Thor's post brought up a question for me. I am not a Boston Qualifier...never have been and never will be. A comfortable marathon for me is 5:15. To be honest, I have completed almost 40 marathons...and have never raced one of them. With this in mind, would you recommend a dual focus, i.e. bike and run speed?

jroden · Nov 30, 2010

I agree with Thor about the need to understand what it feels like to ride a bike fast and develop the discipline to do it for longer periods. Riding a bike well requires you to assume a compact and aerodynamic position, put a significant load of pressure on the pedals and get up and down hills and around corners smoothly. To do this you need to spend some time going fast and hopefully riding with people who can help you get your position onthe bike squared away, help you understand gearing and how to get your hips over the pedals and how to carry speed around turns and over the top of hills. Just going out twaddling around for 4 hours is helpful to a point, but not a very good use of time once you have the basic endurance.
 
Swimming a lot with poor technique is an utter waste of time. You need to get some instruction straight off and error correction as you go along, otherwise you just practice crappy form and get good at swimming badly for longer periods.
 
So, that's a start. If you live somewhere with winter weather, you need a stationary trainer and a complete set of winter bike clothes now. An older bike with fenders and lights is a good way to get more riding time in during the winter, but you have to spend some money. The whole sport is crazy expensive, for that matter.

pcsronbo · Nov 30, 2010

For an Ironman? It's all about the bike. Period. You can kill your day or make it shine, it's all on the bike segment.
 
Sounds like you have the run endurance. So just stick with what you're doing, unless you're shooting for Kona or something. Focus on the ability to do a sub6 stand alone bike - but then do it in 6:30 or 7:00 and have a nice cruise run to the finish. Doing that, you can have a 13hr Ironman.
 
This is pretty much what Thor was saying, in different words.
 
Unless you're going to place or shoot for Kona - there really is no place for run work. And learning to race a marathon isn't the same as learning to run a Ironman marathon - although I've not done it, I've heard that from TONS of folks. Some fast, some slow, all agree - Ironman 26.2 ain't nothing like a stand alone. 

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by 1Topodope <a href="/forum/thread/71372/need-training-advice-program-for-first-ironman#post_1965870"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a> Not to take over the thread, but Thor's post brought up a question for me. I am not a Boston Qualifier...never have been and never will be. A comfortable marathon for me is 5:15. To be honest, I have completed almost 40 marathons...and have never raced one of them. With this in mind, would you recommend a dual focus, i.e. bike and run speed?
</div>
</div>

niemsco · Nov 30, 2010

Biking is a technique sport much like swimming, the issue is that many triathletes overlook this. You have two guys that can produce the same power and are the same weight, the better cyclists is going to woop the lesser one over the course of 112 miles. I would focus first on being efficient on your bike and building skills, then building endurance, then building power should be a concern you have next time in all honesty. Its much like running in that regard. When someone first learns to run, they aren't hammering intervals, and you shouldn't be hammering either with an inefficient engine.
 
1) The first thing I would do is to ensure you have a good position on the bike, you need to do this soon. If you are anywhere near Chicago, I would look into doing an assessment at Vision Quest with Robbie Ventura (xpro cyclists). He does this up in Highland Park. Two hours at 300 bucks but worth every cent. 
2) Next you need to build skills. I ride with some guys now, that when you see them on trainers, they are moving their bodies all over and pedal in squares. This is going to kill you efficient wise. You need to develop a pedal stroke efficiency. A great way to do this is with one leg drills, high cadence drills. I know seasoned cyclists kind of scoff at this, but I believe this goes a long way to develop your cycling. After a year or two, you may find you don't need to do these things.
3) Ideally you might want to get 40-50% of your total weekly volume in hours dedicated to the bike. So 16 hours a week, you are cycling 6-8. 
4) Then you need to learn to ride. You need to get use to riding outdoors in aero, learn how to corner, learn how to properly take hills, learn how to descent.... Lots of great decisions can gain you many minutes, maybe even 30 minutes on the bike producing the same power as someone else. Especially on technical courses. To learn this you just need to ride or ride with a few people that are experienced.
5) Be weary of masters programs, some are good, some are a complete waste of money. Even more than cycling you need to develop technique. So either first get this through some coaching at your local Y, again if you are in my area I have some real good people to recommend.
6) There is a lot to say about swim endurance. Its hard to get faster at swimming, it takes time. You can swim 5 days a week or 3 days a week and you won't get much faster at 5. However, what you will build is endurance. This is good because it allows you to bolt through T1 after swimming 2.4 miles and allows you to settle your HR down to normal within minutes of being on the bike. I've experimented with this with both approaches. I would start swimming now 2-3 times a week, and say 12 weeks out from the race you up that to 3-5 if possible to build that endurance to make you second leg more efficient
7) I personally don't think a half iron does anything to prepare you for an ironman. You should do a half ironman because you want to bust a PR or see how fast you can go. But swimming 1.2 miles and then biking 56 miles at an intensity that is about 10% harder than IM pace does nothing. It also doesn't test your nutrition the same way. I can drink a six pack and eat ribs the night before a half ironman and probably do just fine and take Gatorade the entire time. I've done something similar to that but not the ribs

8) Best way to simulate the conditions of what you will face is to do a long weekend. You swim 2.4 miles in open water, or 4K in the pool, then bike 112 miles, then run 30minutes to an hour. This is really is the only realistic way to test race day nutrition. You want to know how your body is going to react on that bike after all that swimming. THEN the next day you run 2 - 2.5 hours, long run. You do that maybe 4-6 weeks out from your race. You can do it twice also, say 12 weeks out and 6 weeks out. If you are in the area, the best way for you to do this for a Sept race is to go up to Wisconsin and do the Madison open water swim mid august, then ride the ironman course there. There will be a lot of people out there doing it as ironman Wisconsin is the same time as the race you mentioned. Of course if you can do this easily where you live then do that.

Thor · Nov 30, 2010

Seapig (btw, love that name),
 
A final thought here is that to date you have been successful in getting yourself in shape to run a solid marathon. It is that same drive and know-how to train and quest to learn how to do it better that will see yourself through the training for and the racing of an Ironman. So when in doubt, don't get anal but rather trust your instinct. You, honestly, already have all the tools you will need. Many people complicate the distance -- in fact, many will have you think triathlon in itself is a hard sport. Ironman is neither complicated nor hard to figure out. I can promise you that you will learn all the answers to your questions, even those not yet asked, as you are going through the rigors of training cycles. It really is the only way to forge on. You will learn it all. So keep asking Q's. And most importantly, trust your instincts... because think about it: you got a solid marathon under your belt and you were able to ride 100 miles with minimal training. You'll do the same with the swim, and you'll do the same with figuring out how to run after the bike. Rock on, brother!

miles99999 · Nov 30, 2010

Seapig - I really can't add a whole lot to what everyone else has said other than you have a very knowledgeable and experienced group of people here that can provide you with great advice. Listen to what everyone has to say and use the information to get you to your goal. The support that everyone showered me with on my way to my first Ironman this year (actually only a week and a half ago) was tremendous in my being able to complete it. 
 
Good luck in your journey!
 
<a href="http://projectarizona.blogspot.com" target="_blank">Jamie</a>

AdCo · Nov 30, 2010

Kiss your family goodbye (just kidding - sort of), start to figure out nutrition now, get lots of sleep, if you think you need a day off really consider it, it is easy to fall off the overtraining cliff. Enjoy it, but it will be hard work that is ALL worth it.

Tri_coach06 · Nov 30, 2010

You have gotten a lot of info that I would think you already know, or should already know having done a lot of marathons.
 
A few things from the coaches perspective.
 
1) MAKE A SCHEDULE. You don't have to be a slave to it, but you need to kow what your plans are and get ready mentally and physically. You don't want to wake up on Saturday and say, lets ride a 100 miles. You should be prepared for it. Nutrition, hydration and sleep wise. You can't do that stuff willy nilly.
 
2) Learn your pace and train it. If your plans are a 6;30 bike, then ride just below, or at that pace. Running is different as you know, you train that slower for LSD and faster for shorter stuff. For the bike, ride it at speed, or just a touch slower. Swimming is almost always done faster than race pace. Shorter interval with some longer swims later.
 
3) Ironman is all about the food. Don't have enough, crash early and hard. The long rides are what will teach you how much you need. If you get off the bike and the thought of running for 5 minutes makes you wanna hurl, you have't had enough to eat or drink. Practice.
 
4) Take a lesson from Queen. "I love to ride my bicycle." Do it, do it lots.
 
Everything else is just fill in. Those fill in things you do on the schedule. You fit in the runs, you fit in the swims, you fit in the rest, ON THE SCHEDULE.
 
CS

SeaPig · Dec 1, 2010

Thank you for taking the time to post. We all know time is so precious.
 
This is just what I needed to hear from all of you. All of what was said makes a great deal of sense to me and I think I am pointed in the right direction.
 
I will keep you posted as my plan develops and I have questions.
 
SeaPig

SeaPig · Sep 18, 2011

Have not logged on to Kickrunners for over 6 months.
 
And why is That?????
 
Because i have been training for an Ironman with all your great advice.....
 
And drum roll please........
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
I am an ironman at Rev3 Cedar Point!!!!!
 
 
Now for that 3 hour marathon goal......

Thanks guys............................SeaPig.

cak73 · Sep 18, 2011

Woo hoo! Congrats!
 
<img alt="banana.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/banana.gif">
 
 
Now, where's your race report? <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif">

pcsronbo · Sep 19, 2011

Awesome... but it ain't real until we can live vicarously through your RR!!

Need training advice/program for first ironman

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