[Billy]

Here's my situation. I am pleased to report I am in a groove and completing all of my long runs rather than sleeping through them as I used to do. It's not a long streak but it has encompassed all 5 weeks since I decided my knee was healthy enough for training. My training right now is focused on marathon basebuilding.<br><br>
Last weekend I ran 11 miles. I'm adding a mile every week. That will have me scheduled for 14 miles on 4/20. There is a race that weekend, the Mummy Mountain 10 miler. It's very hilly. I would like to do the race but I have done it in the past so it would not be a big deal to miss it. 2 weeks after that I will be taking a short vacation. I'm scheduled for 16 miles that weekend. I've already decided that will be a rest week because I'll be so unlikely to actually run that weekend.<br><br>
Here's how that looks:<br><br>
4/20 - 10 or 14<br>
4/27 - 15<br>
5/4 - 0<br>
5/11 - 17<br><br>
Here are my questions:<br><br>
Is a hilly 10 mile race going to provide similar training benefit to an easy, flat 14?<br><br>
I feel like going 10, 15, 0, 17 is a bit extreme. Should I feel that way? I guess I'm scared of losing fitness before the 17 and have a terrible day then.<br><br>
I'm leaning toward not doing the race. I guess I could lengthen out the 10 mile race to 14 miles. It's not the kind of thing I'm likely to do but I am considering it.<br><br>
Thanks for your thoughts,<br>
Billy

 

[Mailbox Head]

My thought is that the hilly 10 mile race won't give you the same benefit since there are so many physiological adaptations that only take place with extended time on your feet. You might be able to run a few right before the race to simulate the distance a little bit better.<br>
If you're not up for that, but don't want to skip the race, I think you'd be fine. I'm pretty sure conventional wisdom wouldn't have you going long every weekend, so substituting 1 long run for a slightly shorter race isn't going to kill you.<br><br>
(I'll qualify my opinion by admitting I've only run one marathon {and poorly at that}, but I do read a lot...)

 

[SLOjim]

Billy.... a long run every other week isn't a bad thing as long as you're doing your weekly mileage. I've found once I get up to 10 to 12 mile long runs and want to keep increasing I'll usually only increase every other week in 1 or 2 mile increments keeping a 10 or 12 mile long run intermediate weeks.<br><br>
I'm assuming you'll do a 13 4/13, so if you decide to run the 10 mile race, I really don't think you'll lose any ground on your training.

 

[Billy]

That's exactly what I'm worried about.<br><br>
I hear you. I don't seriously plan to keep increasing every week and that's even part of my rationale for resting during vacation. I guess I shouldn't plan my schedule based on fear. In the past, for all kinds of reasons from laziness, conflicting obligations, etc., I have been unable to get enough runs in the 18-20 range done. I also think (though this is probably another discussion) that 20 mile runs are just not long enough.<br><br>
I think I've started early enough that I won't have the problem of not enough long runs this time. I am jealously guarding my long runs in order to make sure this doesn't happen.<br><br>
Thanks,<br>
Billy

 

[mykemp1971]

If you throw in a 2 mile warm-up and a 1 mile warm-down, you're only 1 mile off of your distance goal for that day...

 

[PacerChris]

That's what I'd do - have a nice, long easy warm up, run the race,a nd then cooldown for a bit and you've got your mileage in.<br><br>
Question for you - why CAN'T you run during your vacation, even a little bit? That's the best time to run in my opinion - I don't mind at all getting up early for a run when I'm on vacation so I don't interrupt family time. I can see scaling back so instead of doing a 16 miler, it may be half that or less, but to skip the whole weekend is a lot.<br><br>
I may be doing Mummy Mtn as well - my wife works in Scottsdale 2 weeks of the year and I did it last year as well. Hint - last year the course was definitely long - I'm guessing close to 10.2! I hope to do it again this year as well since it's not more than a 5-10 minute drive from where we'll be.

 

[Billy]

I'm thinking about doing that...there is a Paradise Bakery that is 2 miles away from the course. <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"> I could park there, take a w/u over to the race, then take the c/d over and grab a muffin. <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"> I've done this before as a training run.<br><br>
I have this syndrome that every race has to be a PR attempt. I may well be able to get a Course Record even at an easier pace...because last year I didn't do my long runs before the race. <img alt="blush.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/blush.gif"><br><br>
I can run on my vacation. I just don't think I will. <img alt="blush.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/blush.gif"> Well, I am certainly thinking about doing 6-10. I know I won't do 15 miles when I'm out of town. I want to be sure I'm fresh for being with my family.<br><br>
I know you were at MM last year and I'm sorry I didn't get the chance to meet you. If you are going to be there, it's a definite plus in the race's favor. <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif">

 

[PacerChris]

Aw, shucks...<br><br>
It's hard not to race every race for a PR, but if you're relatively new to running they seem to come along pretty easy. Treat the run as a serious workout - run the first 4 miles or so at a comfortable pace to get out of racing mode, and then see how much you can crank it up in the later miles.<br><br>
Or find a chick with a great ass and just run behind her, no matter what the pace is. <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif">

 

[Flounder]

A really hilly 10 miler = 14 miles on the roads as far as time and effort goes - So I would count it and do 15 the next time

 

[RunLongVT]

I'm with PacerChris- run the race, have fun but don't kill yourself, and if you think you haven't gotten enough time in on the day, jog a few more afterwards. I also second the running on vacation bit. Never would I have found the funky little vistas or local sights and sounds when I travel had I not gone exploring curtesy of a pair of running shoes. Get up before the family if necessary, and go exploring. Chances are you'll be a hero for finding that great breakfast place or attraction you never would have gotten everyone to otherwise.

 

[CoyoteMark]

Caveats first:<br><br>
1) I am not a very experienced runner (just working on my second marathon now)<br>
2) You have run the MM before, so you know how hilly the course is (I couldn't find an elevation # on the web site- are we talking 500ft or 1000's of feet?)<br><br>
But it hasn't been said yet, so I'll say it-<br><br>
My experience is that running hills trains different muscles than flat training runs. My calves get more of a workout from the uphill, and front quads get more of a workout from downhill- as compared to running flat.<br><br>
It seems to me that if all of the rest of your base building is on flats, then a 10 mile hill run will just stress out muscles that you won't be using in the long term anyway.<br><br>
In terms of <i>effort</i> I agree with Flounder.<br><br>
I'm doing a lot of hills in my LSD runs now, but my goal race (Big Sur) has a decent sized hill in the middle, so the hill training is specific to that particular race.<br><br>
Really- I have not done this much, so I don't know- just going off of intuition. Am I off base here? <img alt="confused.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/confused.gif">

 

[Billy]

CoyoteMark,<br><br>
Thanks for the great points. I'm glad of a 2d person agreeing with Flounder. My intuition is that in terms of effort 10 miles of racing hills might be pretty close to 14 miles of flat at an easy effort.<br><br>
I also think you are right that I'm not training the same systems. That's why I'm leaning toward the idea of just making this a hilly long run.<br><br>
I looked at my Garmin data from last year. The course starts at about 1340 ft. It's more or less flat for the first 2 miles, maybe slightly downhill according to the data, maybe slightly uphill according to memory. Running up mile 3 you go up almost 200 feet. You go back down that same amount in the next 1/2 mile or so. Then there are some sneaky uphills and big uphill and you are back into the 1500s over the next 3 or so. Then, down a hundred, up a hundred and then downhill the last 1.5 miles or so. So, it's not the Barkleys ultramarathon or anything, but it's about as hilly as it comes here in the Valley of the Sun, short of climbing Camelback or South Mountain, I suppose.