[jroden]

I was looking at another website called <a href="http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk" target="_blank">www.timetriallingforum.co.uk</a> -- the Brits are crazy time trial fans, it seems like many riders just do TT's of various distances as their main racing, hellish as that sounds. In any event, this post caught my eye, the writer is talking about his MAP (max avg power) test and how he structured his indoor training over a block of three weeks to show some real gains--I don't totally agree with the notion that "base" work is bunk, but I generally have come to an agreement with the power meter crowd that doing more focused quality on the trainer this time of year can really make a difference for most anyone, regardless of ability--anyways, here's the post--<br><br>
3 and a bit weeks ago, baseline tests revealed 255 W for FTP and 365 W for MAP. FTP for me rarely exceeds 70% of MAP, that's just the way I'm built and reflects the fact that relatively speaking, I'm better at 10s than 25s. Since the first test revealed that FTP was already at 70% of MAP, there seemed little point in working on FTP until I'd lifted MAP a little bit for FTP to expand into.<br><br>
So, for the last 3 weeks, and as a part of the overall plan anyway, I've carried out, as key sessions, intervals at 80% of MAP (around 290 W). This was in the form of two sessions per week increasing from 4 intervals per session (4-mins each with 4-mins recovery) in the first week through 5 intervals per session in the second week to 6 intervals per session in the third week. On top of these sessions (which were done on Tuesdays and Fridays) I've been out with Fat Baz 1 for a thorough beasting for 55 miles in around 2 hrs 15 mins on Sunday morning which comprised all zones from tempo through to eyeballs out trying not to throw up. On Thursdays I've been doing 8, 10 and 12 (weeks 1, 2 and 3 respectively) x 5-mins at 105% FTP with 1-2 mins recovery between reps.<br><br>
I think I'm right in saying that I've demonstrated a rather large increase in MAP with rides of no longer than 2.5 hours and about 6-8 hours training at the most. Anyone for 'base' training <img alt="" src="http://www.timetriallingforum.co.uk/style_emoticons/default/wink.gif" style="border:0px solid;"><br><br>
The next 3 weeks are set aside to improve FTP. I'll let the MAP intervals take a maintenance role now and do just 4 x 4 mins per week on Fridays whilst devoting a lot of time to 'sweet spot' type stuff when out on the road and sessions at FTP and just above for the majority of the time. Got to get that FTP up now it has some room to move into

 

[jkaiser20]

Interesting. Nice amount of hard data. Like you have told us, the key here is that on the trainer is work, not just aimlessly spinning.<br><br>
I wonder how much those weekend crazy rides are helping or hindering his overall efforts. They seem quite uncontrolled.

 

[bcc594]

Did he say what his new MAP was? Like Jim, I'd be interested to know whether killing himself on the weekends helped or held him back. Of course, there's something to be sais for staying sane.

 

[jkaiser20]

Um, you missed the part about him being British.<br><br>
In dem Fall ist 'Sanity' kein Thema!<br><br>
Sorry Neil.

 

[jroden]

<br>
he went from 365 to 390 in 3 weeks, maybe in part he "learned" how to take the test better.

 

[jkaiser20]

Some of the 'base is bunk' could just be a product of his years. We had that discussion about the shift from base to more quality being valuable once a long term base is already established.

 

[jroden]

What's more interesting to me than the powerclaptrap is the structure of the guys training, where pretty much every ride this time of the year is structured and fairly challenging, with a back to back thursday and friday. The intervals are pretty long on the one indoor session.<br><br>
Like I said, I don't agree in total that there is no place for doing those long rides outside, especially for getting ready for longer races, but the more I read about the power-based training, there is clearly a tendency to treat cycling on the trainer more like a swimming workout where everything is structured and pretty hard, as compared to a runners schedule this time of year--if you put this guys schedule in runners terms, he's running repeat miles one day and hard 1000's on two other days and a hard 10 miler on the weekend, way more quality than any runner could tolerate.

 

[Tri_coach06]

The article also doesn't mention when his season starts and how long it goes for. It also doesn't mention how long this particular gent has been riding.<br><br>
This seems like a lot of interval work for a season that is not even going to start for a few months. How long can the body stay at MAX output?<br><br>
I understand the notion that those shortish/longish rides done at a boring pace can seem like are doing nothing but keeping people for doing the things they need to do. Like hammer and paint the living room, but they are. They are strengthening the tendons, increasing flexibility, increasing mitochondrial production, instituting capillary production and strengthening the heart.<br><br>
Please don't misunderstand what I'm saying. Even in the base phase the athlete needs to get his/her heart rate up into the red zone, but putting it there and keeping it there for increasing periods of time at this point is counterproductive. The body will reach a peak, then decline. Wouldn't it suck for this guy to peak in March when his first race isn't until May?<br><br>
CS

 

[bcc594]

John,<br>
I agree that this kind of schedule would be untenable for a runner. The non-weigh bearing nature of biking makes it kind of possible. It would be good to know how long this fellow has been plying his trade. If I were to try that kind of training, after less than a year on a bike, I would probably blow my knees, or something similar. I'm still in the collecting kms phase of my life as a para-biker.

 

[jroden]

I'm not a powermeter disciple, but I'm watching these guys from the sidelines because they make me question a lot of the beliefs I have held for many years. When I look at the training a lot of people are doing around this sort of thing, it's often set at a sub-anaerobic level, but near the AT and pretty high in total volume for each rep, e.g. 2 x 20 seems pretty common throughout. Cyclists are pretty tradition bound, but the sport has been changing with some of the new tools. When I hang out with triathletes, sometimes I feel like I'm in sort of a 1980's running boom timewarp where everyone is droning on about how many miles of this and that they do per week. It's still kind of a sport that worships the "tri bum" living in a rented room with heaps of clothes all over the place and training 30 hours a week.<br><br>
I bet that in the next few years there will be triathletes posting top finishes off a training program of 12 or few hours per week and very few twice daily workouts -- all focused, mostly quality and lots of testing in all three sports, with continuous modification to the training program based ont eh testing. Mark my words.

 

[jkaiser20]

If you would leave them kms alone and put in miles it would go faster. <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"><br><br><br>
CS, nice comments.<br><br>
Yeah someone needs to research this guy so we can get the full story.

 

[jroden]

I don't think "that guy" is really anything special, he's just an example of how a whole group of riders has been training the last few years, following guys like Coggin and Hunter Alllen, using software like training peaks.<br><br>
The reason I posted it is because it makes me question some of what I believe, e.g. the season has to start with 1000 miles of base in the small chainring, or your assumption, a new riders has to accumulate X km's of junk miles prior to working harder---so WHY? Maybe a new rider can do a more focused program and cut years off their progression--perhaps not, but I think it's a "runners assumption" that doing higher intensity prior to base will lead to injury.<br><br>
Here's another guess--I bet you could take a rookie rider on a 4 hours a week program on a computrainer and crush a similar rider doing twice the volume at an easy pace and do it in every important dimension, climbing, TT, etc. I have real doubts that lifting the pace and intensity, when done in a thoghtful way, will lead to injury or "burnout" whatever that is.<br><br>
Let me post-preface this by noting I'm not a coach, just a guy that like to read a little.

 

[Tri_coach06]

This may be true in the few weeks prior to racing, but I doubt any serious tri will be under the 15-18 hour mark in peak training for an IM. Most elites will be near 30 and the top Agers will be near 25.<br><br>
When I was peaking for Florida I was near 25 every week and felt like I was short. The training volume has to be different for a triathlete as we have to do 3 disciplines and not just one.<br><br>
Also, a triathlete that trains like a biker will burn out and die on the run. A good triathlete is a runner that trains some bike, ie Thor.<br><br>
CS

 

[jroden]

It will be interesting to watch over time, bear in mind I'm not all that old and I was competing when some of the very first ironman races were contested, so it's a very young sport and the progression of speed people bring to the table has changed markedly over 25 years. I think the truths that emerge about training for various overdistance events will become clearer in the next few years because the technology for measuring human performance is more available and the knowledge to make sense of it has become more widespread, in part due to the internet. Who knows which way it will break, but my gut feeling is that 30 hours a week is so far into the land of diminished returns.

 

[Tri_coach06]

Are people ready to give up a 2 hour ride in z2 for a 15 minute ride in z5c? <img alt="confused.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/confused.gif"><br><br>
CS

 

[niemsco]

Stadler and Macca are doing 30+ hour weeks. They seem to be improving <img alt="wink.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/wink.gif"><br><br>
This guy who posted this is ready for a crash and burn in my opinion, just like you would if you try this with running, and I have! But I guess its what his end goal is, as this type of training wouldn't get you to the start of an IM, because he is missing the crucial physiological changes that will enable to go at higher intensities for 10+ hours, and function at higher intensities at zone 4 and 5.<br><br>
Which explained to me where two primary things: enzymatic and hormonal changes that take place in the muscle cells that make it easier for fat to be used as fuel, and second, improvements in the body's circulatory characteristics and peripheral muscles will help to move waste products away from muscle tissue and bring new blood, oxygen and fuel to the muscle for more work. At least that is what they say (of course I read this from something my coach gave me), and these benefits are derived from zone 1 alone.<br><br>
That said I do believe in the bike strength sessions, and do them on a computrainer once a week. In all my training I will do at least one high intensity bike/run/swim, but I pack it around more aerobic workouts. Doing 4 and 5 hour rides higher than zone 2 is just going to put enough hurt in you to not recovery correctly and you will be missing the psychological benefits. Its like just drinking cola for the empty carbs, and not eating your fruit and veggies.

 

[Thor]

From my experience on the Trainer and keeping it quality and quality only, and in what I've read all the Internet around about Power-based training and how to put a schedule together to reap most efficient rewards, I totally side with Jr on this.<br><br>
Question: Can someone explain FTP and MAP? I'm guessing MAP is the average maximum power that gets hit, even if it's only ten times in any given workout for a few seconds. And I assume FTP, whatever that stands for, is the average power output over the course of the ride. No?

 

[niemsco]

The FTP (Functional Threshold Power), is the highest power a rider can maintain for an hour.... This is the first time I've heard about MAP, so I don't know.

 

[niemsco]

By the way.. There is something called a power profile table at this link:<br><br><a href="http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/power411/profile.asp" target="_blank">http://www.cyclingpeakssoftware.com/...11/profile.asp</a><br><br>
There is an excel spreadsheet there that goes over a 5sec, 1min, 5min, and a FTP profile. The 5sec to 5min sounds more like MAP values. The spreadsheet attempts to classify you based on your Watts/Kilogram rating for each time segment. This table is directly from the Training and Racing with a Power Meter book.<br><br>
So if you know any of these values you can divide by your weight in KG and see how you stack up. Of course this table was derived by the authors of this book based on their experiences, so take it for what its worth. I tested rather low on this at first, but have moved up a bit after doing a few FTP tests on the CT.

 

[Tithers]

My functional threshold kinda matches effort w/my LT...