I'd like toread your thoughts about this article
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
Joined
·
6,434 Posts
<p>hmmm, I'll be interested to hear opinions on this also. Pretty much goes against everything we've heard and done forever on how best to deal with inflammation. Not sure I'm convinced on his theories behind his 'don't treat inflammation' proposition though.</p>
Joined
·
2,566 Posts
<p>Actually, I've heard this most of my life in regards to <em>muscle</em> soreness. Inflammation is the body's way of healing itself, and never ice or take NSAIDs to try and mitigate it. Of course muscles are vascular and have blood flow, so they use this characteristic for their repair purposes. Now <em>joints</em> are different. They consist of cartilage and other connective tissue that are not vascular. They have a more difficult time healing themselves without this blood flow. When they tear or wear down and cause pain, icing and NSAIDs can be beneficial since they are not interrupting the natural healing process and can bring temporary pain-relief. Connective tissue needs an active healing process where movement is not restricted. The temporary pain-relief can help enable this movement and promote proper healing.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>This article addresses muscle soreness, not joint or connective tissue pain. Very different things.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>This article addresses muscle soreness, not joint or connective tissue pain. Very different things.</p>
Joined
·
3,417 Posts
<p>All I can say is I like the less-is-more/hush-up-and-run approach. Resting is important. Masking pain is a no-no. Take focus off the gimmicks and gadgets and listen to what the old bod is telling you.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anyone who says ice baths are unhelpful must be listened to, in my opinion. Vile things.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Anyone who says ice baths are unhelpful must be listened to, in my opinion. Vile things.</p>
Joined
·
1,146 Posts
<p>Interesting article John! I am of the School that says let Nature and your body take it's course.</p>
<p>I rarely take pain killers of any kind (I want to know exactly what's going on with my body)...never had a massage and never took an ice bath.</p>
<p>I have used ice in the past but I don't anymore.</p>
<p>I say this guy is on to something....</p>
<p>I rarely take pain killers of any kind (I want to know exactly what's going on with my body)...never had a massage and never took an ice bath.</p>
<p>I have used ice in the past but I don't anymore.</p>
<p>I say this guy is on to something....</p>
Joined
·
2,579 Posts
<p>I agree totally with the article about inflammation and injuries.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>One point though is that in regards to massage, I believe he was only saying it didn't affect the inflammation response. I believe massage can loosen up tight and spasming muscles so they don't affect other areas and allow you to continue training at a high level. My therapist also uses craniosacral therapy which is supposed to allow the pathways of the body to "open" to essentially allow the body to heal itself. All I know is the first couple visits, it seemed like she hardly did anything, but my whole body was sore the next morning. I have had calves and hamstrings tighten up so much they affected my running. One visit to her to realign my pelvis and the tightness went away. Of course you also have to remedy the cause in the first place which was overtraining or not warming up enough.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>One point though is that in regards to massage, I believe he was only saying it didn't affect the inflammation response. I believe massage can loosen up tight and spasming muscles so they don't affect other areas and allow you to continue training at a high level. My therapist also uses craniosacral therapy which is supposed to allow the pathways of the body to "open" to essentially allow the body to heal itself. All I know is the first couple visits, it seemed like she hardly did anything, but my whole body was sore the next morning. I have had calves and hamstrings tighten up so much they affected my running. One visit to her to realign my pelvis and the tightness went away. Of course you also have to remedy the cause in the first place which was overtraining or not warming up enough.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
Joined
·
5,808 Posts
<p>...I picked up on the RockClimbing right away......</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>actually</p>
<p>if the inflammation lasts more than a year, you should probably see a doc.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I waited a year and a half,</p>
<p>but I've always been an optimist.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>good thread ks</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>actually</p>
<p>if the inflammation lasts more than a year, you should probably see a doc.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I waited a year and a half,</p>
<p>but I've always been an optimist.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
<p>good thread ks</p>
Joined
·
1,018 Posts
<p> </p>
<a class="spoiler-link H-spoiler-toggle" href="#"><strong>Warning: Spoiler!</strong> <span class="spoiler-help">(Click to show)</span></a><div class="spoiler-hidden">I thought you were a pharmacist.
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
<a class="spoiler-link H-spoiler-toggle" href="#"><strong>Warning: Spoiler!</strong> <span class="spoiler-help">(Click to show)</span></a><div class="spoiler-hidden">I thought you were a pharmacist.
<div>
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
Joined
·
53 Posts
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">I noticed that the book opens on the first page with the text:</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">“This book is intended as a reference volume only, not as a medical manual. The information<br>
given here is designed to help you make informed decisions about your health. It is not intended<br>
as a substitute for any treatment that may have been prescribed by your doctor. …”</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Other than one study listed below (1), I couldn’t find any peer-reviewed published research on this topic by these authors. I don’t know if their assertions rest on science-based experiments with control and experimental groups, or if this is just their opinion. </span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Working at an academic institution does not mean that your ideas have been subjected to analysis by an anonymous group of your peers as to their scientific worthiness or validity. It just means that you work at an academic institution.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Soft tissue Injuries:</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">If it is their opinion in the book, then based on my personal experiments I would agree with them in the case of soft tissue injuries. There may be some evolutionary reason for Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS). Maybe as they suggest, it is best to just suffer through the discomfort.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Massage</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">I have found a few studies on the effectiveness of massage for controlling DOMS through <a href="http://www.scholar.google.com" target="_blank">www.scholar.google.com</a>, but they all based their results on control-group to experimental-group comparisons. I could not find any studies involving bilateral muscle injuries and treatment of one pain site while leaving the other site untreated. That would be a simple experiment to do.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">I did a small experiment immediately after an especially hard race; I had only one quadriceps muscle massaged by a therapist. The other was side was not massaged. The next day it seemed to me as if the discomfort (DOMS) was equally intense in both legs. Maybe massage helps some runners and not all. It didn’t help me.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">I recommend that other runners conduct similar experiments on themselves. In the case of equal bilateral injuries, treat one side only and determine if any of the treatments work for you. I could not find a correlation between DOMS and massage or hot or cold packs.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Connective Tissue and Joint Injuries.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">I like Labduck’s comments on this area. </span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">In line with that I recommend that all runners carefully maintain a daily log. Each entry might include a rating as to the run’s intensity and note any areas of discomfort that that they experienced during the run. The next morning they might also record any morning discomforts. By doing this a runner can begin to understand how specific types of training, shoes, orthotics or terrain may correlate with specific muscle, connective-tissue or joint injuries. </span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">There is some research in the area of handling the discomfort due to connective tissue (tendonitis) and cartilage (joint) injuries with NSAID’s, but I don’t recall the findings. There was some connection with recovery rates.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">For me NSAIDs are essential for a good night’s sleep, when otherwise incidental back, hip and shoulder pains from my other activities can lead to a night of tossing and turning.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Good discussion,</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Ted</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">540<sup>th</sup> 5K in-a-row: <a href="http://mysite.verizon.net/tjacmc/History/Pace.jpg" target="_blank">http://mysite.verizon.net/tjacmc/History/Pace.jpg</a></span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">(1) Dysnatremia Predicts a Delayed Recovery in Collapsed Ultramarathon Runners, Clinical Journal of Sport Medicine: July 2007 - Volume 17 - Issue 4 - pp 289-296, doi: 10.1097/JSM.0b013e31804c779b</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">“This book is intended as a reference volume only, not as a medical manual. The information<br>
given here is designed to help you make informed decisions about your health. It is not intended<br>
as a substitute for any treatment that may have been prescribed by your doctor. …”</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Other than one study listed below (1), I couldn’t find any peer-reviewed published research on this topic by these authors. I don’t know if their assertions rest on science-based experiments with control and experimental groups, or if this is just their opinion. </span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Working at an academic institution does not mean that your ideas have been subjected to analysis by an anonymous group of your peers as to their scientific worthiness or validity. It just means that you work at an academic institution.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Soft tissue Injuries:</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">If it is their opinion in the book, then based on my personal experiments I would agree with them in the case of soft tissue injuries. There may be some evolutionary reason for Delayed Onset Muscle Soreness (DOMS). Maybe as they suggest, it is best to just suffer through the discomfort.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Massage</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">I have found a few studies on the effectiveness of massage for controlling DOMS through <a href="http://www.scholar.google.com" target="_blank">www.scholar.google.com</a>, but they all based their results on control-group to experimental-group comparisons. I could not find any studies involving bilateral muscle injuries and treatment of one pain site while leaving the other site untreated. That would be a simple experiment to do.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">I did a small experiment immediately after an especially hard race; I had only one quadriceps muscle massaged by a therapist. The other was side was not massaged. The next day it seemed to me as if the discomfort (DOMS) was equally intense in both legs. Maybe massage helps some runners and not all. It didn’t help me.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">I recommend that other runners conduct similar experiments on themselves. In the case of equal bilateral injuries, treat one side only and determine if any of the treatments work for you. I could not find a correlation between DOMS and massage or hot or cold packs.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Connective Tissue and Joint Injuries.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">I like Labduck’s comments on this area. </span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">In line with that I recommend that all runners carefully maintain a daily log. Each entry might include a rating as to the run’s intensity and note any areas of discomfort that that they experienced during the run. The next morning they might also record any morning discomforts. By doing this a runner can begin to understand how specific types of training, shoes, orthotics or terrain may correlate with specific muscle, connective-tissue or joint injuries. </span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">There is some research in the area of handling the discomfort due to connective tissue (tendonitis) and cartilage (joint) injuries with NSAID’s, but I don’t recall the findings. There was some connection with recovery rates.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">For me NSAIDs are essential for a good night’s sleep, when otherwise incidental back, hip and shoulder pains from my other activities can lead to a night of tossing and turning.</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Good discussion,</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">Ted</span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">540<sup>th</sup> 5K in-a-row: <a href="http://mysite.verizon.net/tjacmc/History/Pace.jpg" target="_blank">http://mysite.verizon.net/tjacmc/History/Pace.jpg</a></span></span></p>
<p> </p>
<p><span style="font-size:10pt;"><span style="font-family:arial;">(1) Dysnatremia Predicts a Delayed Recovery in Collapsed Ultramarathon Runners, Clinical Journal of Sport Medicine: July 2007 - Volume 17 - Issue 4 - pp 289-296, doi: 10.1097/JSM.0b013e31804c779b</span></span></p>
Joined
·
1,685 Posts
<p>um, i'm not so sure about the article. those guys do write some good stuff on their science of sport web site, but i don't agree with their message here.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>i like r.i.c.e. i'd also like to know if pete magill, master's runner extraordinare and author of the article (with a reluctant tone), has stopped icing after writing this? doubt it.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>i like r.i.c.e. i'd also like to know if pete magill, master's runner extraordinare and author of the article (with a reluctant tone), has stopped icing after writing this? doubt it.</p>
1 - 13 of 13 Posts
