How do you structure a 45 mile run week?

MBannon · Nov 1, 2010

Well actually, how should I structure it? I've done 2 or 3 40-mile run weeks over the past year, but am hoping to hit the 45 mark a couple times this winter if all goes well.
 
Right now I have 4, 6, 7, 10, 4, 0, 14 but I am thinking I'd like to cut that long run down to 13 and bring one of the others up by one. Just seems safer to me. But which run should I increase?
 
For reference, my 35-mile schedule is 4, 6, 8, 6, 0 , 11, 0 and my 40-mile schedule is 3, 4, 6, 9, 0, 6, 12.
 
Any thoughts appreciated! Will probably make my first attempt at this beast sometime in December.

hobey · Nov 1, 2010

Remember the context is marathon training but here is how I structured a couple of 43-45 mile weeks back when I was ramping for Disney.
 
Example #1: 4,10,4,5,0,20,0
Example #2: 8,11,4,6,0,14,0
 
For my next build, here is an example from early in my plan, I think week 1 or 2. I'm ramping up to 60 and I'm kind of scared. <img alt="" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/shock.gif" title="">
 
Example #1: 0,6,8,6,6,5,14
 
The week is broken up into a long run, a midweek medium long run of 60-80% the LR distance, a quality tempo or track workout of 6-8 miles total, and then 4-6 miles of easy running with one rest day/week.

MBannon · Nov 1, 2010

Your example #1 seems like the fast-track to injury (I get that it was a quick ramp-up to marathon mileage, though) so forget that. Your example #2 is quite close to what I have right now, but I think I'd like to keep my longest run under 30% of total weekly mileage.
 

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by hobey <a href="/forum/thread/70934/how-do-you-structure-a-45-mile-run-week#post_1959009"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a> Example #1: 4,10,4,5,0,20,0
Example #2: 8,11,4,6,0,14,0
 
 
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hobey · Nov 1, 2010

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<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by MBannon <a href="/forum/thread/70934/how-do-you-structure-a-45-mile-run-week#post_1959015"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> 
Your example #1 seems like the fast-track to injury (I get that it was a quick ramp-up to marathon mileage, though) so forget that. Your example #2 is quite close to what I have right now, but I think I'd like to keep my longest run under 30% of total weekly mileage.
 

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I don't advocate example 1 to start off with. I had already done several 17 milers and a 20 miler before I did that in December so I already had plenty of mileage under my belt.. For Disney, it was actually a slow ramp. The second example and the one I've yet to do are more reasonable ways to get to 45.

Yo Sake · Nov 2, 2010

I am no expert but have build over 45mpw during my 6 marathons and 3 halves without injuries (except the firsts marathon of course) so I can speak from my experiences.
It depends on what you are trying to accomplish with the 45mpw in my opinion. So give us more details, including your goal/purpose to achieve this 45mpw. Assuming you aren't trying to build up for a marathon (I don't remember reading it in your 'off-season plan' thread) and not training for a specific race within a few months, I wouldn't go longer than 14 or 15miles long run. I think 'medium-long' run of 10-12 wouldn't be a bad idea. And some sort of cruise interval or tempo run would give you some flavor to otherwise same-pace-all-the-time runs. You can safely increase a recovery run to 5 or 6 miles, maybe two of these. Adding these up, you are there.
I highly recommmend to read the Daniels running formula. It give you nice tools to figure out yourself approx how much % of the total volume should be at T (tempo) pace, at I (Interval pace), and at R (repetition) pace. And what those paces should be based on your recent race. Even during a base building period, I would think runs at T, I or R pace is important. 
 
Make sure to keep a good open communication with your knees and hips.

Alaska Mike · Nov 2, 2010

I like what Yoshi has to say. While total weekly mileage is an important factor, it should not be looked at in isolation. It's almost more important to consider what you're doing in those 45 mpw. I like her thought of increasing the mileage on the recovery days ... as long as the pace is actually at recovery pace (z1 or z2). If you're really wanting to hit that 45 mpw number, then I might even consider dropping the rest day, I think you get as much if not more out of an easy recovery day, in my experience.
 
The other critical piece of info we don't have is what you're doing with bike-swim. I don't think you can put together a run plan in isolation to your other workouts.
 
Maybe 5 (recovery), 7 (tempo/fartlek), 5 (recovery), 10 (mid), 5 (recovery), rest,13 (long). That still includes a rest day, if you were just a runner I might be inclined to have you do an easy 3 on that day just to work the muscles. I like this better than your current schedule because I think those three days of 6,8,6 would tend to become the classic mid-pace runs that don't do much good but do tire you out. Three quality days, 4 recovery days. Make the quality days count and this should work better.
 
Mike

Thor · Nov 2, 2010

I agree with Mike and Yoshi. We honestly cannot help you all that much until we know your goal. Because mileage per week, in my opinion, is utterly misguided when the goal is anything other than mileage per week, and since very, very few people have a goal targeted at mileage per week, it becomes even more misguided.
 
As Mike and Yoshi suggest, it is more about key workouts and having those step you toward your goal. The mileage per week is, really, an afterthought that will always add up once you have the foundation of the proper workouts dictated by your goals.
 
If your goal really is mileage per week, and nothing else, in a way of merely building base, I would suggest hooking up with a few other runners for a weekend long run. Work that run up to roughly 15 to 16 miles over the next few months. And if you find a group equal paced to slower than you, you will get up to that level very quickly. Then insert a mid-week middle distanced run of, say, 10 to 12 miles. On recovery days, instead of taking a day of rest, insert a two or three mile easy leg stretcher. Bring along the iPod; do something different, make it fun.
 
If your goal is to eventually get up to the marathon, I would focus on three things and only three things. Weekend long run with friends. I stress with friends because it will become SO EASY to do and will never add further burnout or stress. It never gets monotonous when in the company of others, because it is all entirely social. Forget pace. Let it be what it will be. Then start layer in more proper speed. And on top of that add in a tempo day. Tempo day could even resemble speed work, just don't be as harsh with the top end; keep intervals longer. Miles per week will add to a healthy number.
 
Last time I looked at miles per week was, maybe, 5 or 7 years ago. It's a number. A misguided one.

MBannon · Nov 2, 2010

Good stuff, thanks! Yes, I should have mentioned my goal, huh?
 
Mainly I just want to build a good base so that in spring I can ease back the mileage and layer in some tempo stuff, slowly building on that throughout the summer, with the idea of rocking the 10k distance by late summer. So for now (and for the past year-plus, actually) it's all same-pace-different-day. A bit boring, perhaps, but my body seems to accept more mileage much more readily than it accepts more speed.
 
My swim and bike workouts are...well, you know what they are. They're intense, especially when the structured trainer workouts kick in somewhere around late December or so.
 
I seem to run really well in the 30-40 miles per week range, so I'm hoping to build a little beyond that in the next couple months so I can drop back to that range in April or May while safely upping the tempo once or twice a week.
 
Make sense? Misguided?

Thor · Nov 2, 2010

I would love to see you break up the same-pace monotony with some quality. Although ramping mileage will make you stronger, it is a strength that would be negligible when compared to layering in proper speed work. But I get why you don't want to do speed work (ie body doesn't adapt well) so another alternative, and still one I would rather see over 'just more plodding miles', is hill work. Hill work doesn't need to be "at pace" to be effective, though you, of all people, should try it as it really is far easier on the body than proper speed. You can gain more strength with even just one of these per week or, if you'd rather, once every other week (but then I'd say make it quality). And not just a hilly route. Rather do some repeats on different types of hills. Find a long gradual for one workout, then a shorter steeper one; then maybe even a combination of one followed by another, or look around that long gradual and see if the other side has a short steep, and in that case do consecutive repeats. And if at first you are worried about the impact on injury, then don't charge the hill... just climb in normally 4 to 10 times. Work it slowly. And after a while you'll fall right into charging it, but all in a good way that sees you build strength over that time. Couple this with a weekend long run with friends and you will have that break out you're looking for. Just layer in plod miles and you will learn to plod for a really long time. So give your legs -- and lungs -- a different look. It'll be more fun. I promise. Maybe even treat yourself to an iPod or something for this run once per week or on alternate weeks. It'll become something you look forward to.

hobey · Nov 2, 2010

Do you fartlek? Really...Thor's got some good stuff w.r.t to hill work but fartleks seem to be overlooked and need some more love here. Toss in 4-6 30 second pickups and focus on form, turnover, etc.

MBannon · Nov 2, 2010

Not until spring at the earliest. I'm not looking for performance gains right now, just endurance gains via base-building.
 
 
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by hobey <a href="/forum/thread/70934/how-do-you-structure-a-45-mile-run-week#post_1959234"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a> Do you fartlek? 
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hobey · Nov 2, 2010

But fartleks in my mind are not for performance gains. They are a good low-impact way to keep your fast twitchers firing and a great way to focus on form. I would actually toss in a fartlek session in one of your weekly runs.

hobey · Nov 2, 2010

An interesting approach...<a href="http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244-255-9215-0,00.html" target="_blank">http://www.runnersworld.com/article/0,7120,s6-238-244-255-9215-0,00.html</a>
 
You could cut the mileage but the physiology/science is about the same when comparing fast Olys to marathons.

donskiman · Nov 3, 2010

Your goal is base building. 45 mpw is approx. 6.5 miles every day. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that until you are training for something specific. Vary the pace of your daily runs based on how you feel on a particular day. Keep the pace easy most of the time, but throw in a faster run or surges within a run a few times a week. Long runs, intervals, tempos, etc., are all things included in race specific training and aren't really necessary for base building.
 
I run 70-75 mpw right now. It's basically a daily run of 8-12 miles, occasionally longer or shorter. It averages out to a little over 10 miles/day. If I miss a day I just add a couple miles to each daily run to make it up. Simply running higher volume in the past 3 years has allowed me to continuously set new PRs at almost every distance without any real focus on speedwork. Interestingly, I noticed maybe 5-6 years ago while training for a marathon that when I started maintaining about 45 mpw, all my running greatly improved. All I did was build off that idea.

MBannon · Nov 3, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Donskiman <a href="/forum/thread/70934/how-do-you-structure-a-45-mile-run-week#post_1959319"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> Your goal is base building. 45 mpw is approx. 6.5 miles every day. It doesn't need to be more complicated than that until you are training for something specific. Vary the pace of your daily runs based on how you feel on a particular day. Keep the pace easy most of the time, but throw in a faster run or surges within a run a few times a week. Long runs, intervals, tempos, etc., are all things included in race specific training and aren't really necessary for base building.
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You realize this goes against pretty much every training plan in existence, right? Not saying it's wrong, it's just...unorthodox. I've never heard of base building that didn't include at least one run per week that's longer than all the others. I kinda like it. Simple. Run one hour, every day. Hmmmm...

Yo Sake · Nov 3, 2010

Even with a pure base building being your goal, I agree with Thor that it would be a good idea to layer in some at higher efforts. In addition, 'several 'strides', as hobey suggested, shouldn't take too much out of you at all, it is not really 'speed work' in my opinion. These strides are often suggested toward the end of easy/recovery run days. 
 
When I just 'run', I tend to end up spending a lot of time at Z3 - no man's land - not hard enough to improve LT/vo2 but too hard as an easy run. As I get used to stimulate 'right system' at a given stage of a long distance training, I naturally spend more time either Z4 or Z2, not much room/time to run at z3.
 
Or, who cares...as Don said just run an hour a day however fast you feel like running at any given day! Whatever keeps your knees/hips happy seem to be the key for a concistent running which would take you the next level. Good luck!!

Thor · Nov 3, 2010

Another option for you, Matt, is to wing it. By wing it I mean that you decide to run every day (or often) for a certain time or distance, but on some of those runs, say, once or even twice per week, when the engine is revving and wanting to go, go with it. I do this throughout the year, especially when I'm not in the middle of proper speed work. That will afford you an extra session per week where you can get stronger and keep the legs firing. Keep in mind that speed and strength are, depending on where you are with your running, one in the same. For some they are not the same. But for others, especially those who haven't had years of doing speed work, you will get both faster and stronger that way. This is exactly how you hear people say, "I can't believe I PR'd the race... all I did were long runs, with no speedwork." That just means that these people have not reached their peak. Because you get to a point eventually where if you do not do speed work, you will not come too close to any PR. You can gain ground by increasing mileage, but only to a point. Eventually you will plateau, and that level will be lower than you can if you did the best of both worlds with long AND speed and tempos, like with a solid training program.
 
Honestly, after thinking about this thread and the course it took (based on what you had to say of your goals and interests), find out what works for you in what will keep you motivated to maintain a higher weekly volume. If you get inspired by running an hour a day, go for it. If you rather like to mix it up (which seems more your personality, which is why I am surprised you are thinking otherwise), I would insert some *mild* (so not to injure or burnout) speed sessions (call them fartlek or pickups or what ever you want) and hills over runs of varying distances. The monotony of running the same distance day in a day out, especially for those who run alone, and at the same pace tends to burn most people out. It gets boring. Challenge yourself, either physically with a tougher workout here or there, or even in route selection, and you will make it stick and stay motivated. Also consider finding a group to run with. Group runs are what I call "free" runs. They are so easy (and they are fun) that they almost don't count -- but in a good way, because they don't aid in burning you out, they keep you motivated, and all you have to do is plan the rest of your runs. The group runs come free. And they are a great way to build a substantial base like you're talking.
 
Maybe even consider joining a marathon group. Stay with them until they bridge the 15 mile barrier. And you can still run with them, just stop at 15, and give input to the group so that they can plan routes that drop you back off at home or your car at your desired distance. That's what my friends and I do.

donskiman · Nov 3, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by MBannon <a href="/forum/thread/70934/how-do-you-structure-a-45-mile-run-week#post_1959339"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a> 
You realize this goes against pretty much every training plan in existence, right? Not saying it's wrong, it's just...unorthodox. I've never heard of base building that didn't include at least one run per week that's longer than all the others. I kinda like it. Simple. Run one hour, every day. Hmmmm...
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If you feel you really need a longer run you could do 6 days of 6 miles and 1 day of 9 miles. <img alt="smile.gif" class="bbcode_smiley" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies//smile.gif"> A great thing about daily running is it's very easy to bump up the volume with only a small daily increase. Add a mile a day and all of a sudden you're over 50 miles/week. And an extra mile is less than 10 minutes more so it doesn't take much time.
 
Don't run the same pace every day and vary your routes to keep from burn out. I often have no idea where I'll run until I start and see which direction the wind is blowing. Daily running is not fair weather running. It means dealing with whatever is out there on any particular day. Some days are great, some are spent battling the elements. I've had days when I've had to run uphill into a 40-50 mph wind toward the end of a 12 mile run. This kind of stuff helps build the mental toughness to keep pushing at the end of a hard race.
 
There are huge gains to be had from simply running higher volumes. Many people never come close to realizing these gains because they never run enough. Sure, there comes a point where the gains from volume plateau, but for many people that can take years to reach and most never run higher volume consistently enough to get to that point. I've seen many people avoid running higher volume because it takes a long time to realize the gains. They go for the promise of fast gains through speedwork and often end up injured because their body wasn't ready for the stress. They cycle through recovery, short build, speedwork, injury for years and never have much improvement. There are physiological adaptations gained through higher volume that can't be had without it. It's one of the reasons why so many elite runners have their best races after a solid block of high volume. And what we tend to think of as high volume isn't even close in the running world. For example, my 70 miles/week is at the low end. Many of the guys I compete against locally are running 80-100+ and have been doing so for many years. It's difficult to beat guys with this kind of base who have then layered speedwork on top, but I'm closing the gap.
 
So my advice is to run daily, run approximately the same distance (5-8 miles), vary the pace according to how you feel, keep at it for 4-6 months, then use a race plan to sharpen and add quality. By next summer you should see solid improvement.

MBannon · Nov 3, 2010

Great advice, everyone, thanks! I'm going to chew on it all for a bit and see what I come up with.

niemsco · Nov 3, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by MBannon <a href="/forum/thread/70934/how-do-you-structure-a-45-mile-run-week#post_1959467"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> Great advice, everyone, thanks! I'm going to chew on it all for a bit and see what I come up with.
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Chew on it while your running, so you can starting knocking those miles out!

How do you structure a 45 mile run week?

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