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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
<a href="http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2007/8/8/194812.shtml" target="_blank">http://archive.newsmax.com/archives/...8/194812.shtml</a><br><br>
Any Obama supporters out there think this flap over his pastor will effect his nomination over Hillary? How about in the general election? Does the choice of this guy as his pastor for 20 years say something about Obama's character or his worldview?<br><br>
What about the pastor himself? Is he a racist? Anti-American?<br><br>
Thoughts?
 

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I think what the pastor says is disgusting, though I have the feeling it just was something phrased wrong and a misspeak for the message (haven't heard the whole thing, just a clip). I don't think it has anything to do with Obama.
 

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You mean someone thinks there's a racial gap in the US and is vocal about it?<br><br>
Gasp!<br><br>
I'm not thinking this is gonna matter much. Most of the people who would be swayed by this sort of thing have already made up their mind.
 

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<br>
True. Most have already made up their minds and wouldn't hear much of anything negative about their choice for the next prez.<br><br>
Having looked at the church's web site, I can't help but wonder what would happen if McCain or Hillary were associated with a similar church but the word "black" were substituted for "white". The mission statement comes off as very exclusionary.
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
You should check out some of what this guy is saying. He says we deserved to be attacked on 9/11, and that the government is responsible for infecting black people with AIDS and distributing drugs to blacks. He pretty plainly says this stuff, hard to misinterpret.<br><a href="http://online.wsj.com/article/SB120545277093135111.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries" target="_blank">http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1205...n_commentaries</a><br><br>
But he's not running for office, he can say anything he wants. The question is about Obama. He sat in this church for 20 years. Was married by this pastor and had his kids baptized there.<br><br>
If you are a moderate or independent, how does this make you feel?
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
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I think there is a third of the country that will vote Democrat no matter what, and a third that will vote Republican no matter what, give or take.<br>
It's the middle third that I'm asking about.
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
I don't know... Is this really about religous affiliation? The statements in question have little to do with religion.
 

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Wow, so, it wasn't a misspeak? I just assumed-- you know how things are clipped and taken out of context. People said Ron Paul said we deserved to be attacked, when he merely logically said that the attack and those feelings toward us didn't come out of nowhere.<br>
That is disgusting. Has Obama come out to speak against those specific things being said? I would like to see that if he was a member to that church for so long. It would really bother me if he doesn't. If he does, I don't think I'll use what the pastor says against Obama... especially if the pastor is just now getting more vocal and extreme because he has the spotlight. (Not sure how long this guy has been saying such things.) I'll go read a bit more on it.<br><br>
I am a libertarian... would tend towards Republican if it wasn't for the religious right and how much they've been entrenched in the party.<br>
I was going to vote Democrat this election of Obama ran (not Clinton) despite some of the ideological differences I have...
 

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But as I understand it, in Black churches, religion and race and politics and morality are all part and parcel of the same issue. Dr. King was a church leader, and many leaders have come from the various churches.<br><br>
A lot of what this pastor has said are very popular ideas in some communities -- a sense of Biblical retribution for a country that, in their minds, hasn't come to resolve many of the issues created by slavery 240+ years ago. However, many people go to worship at places where they might not necessarily agree with everything the priest/pastor/minister/rabbi/imam says.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I have an uncle like that. Drinks too much, tells offensive jokes. I avoid him. I didn't choose to go listen to him spew garbage every week for 20 years. I didn't ask him to be at my wedding, let alone be in the wedding party. I didn't ask him to be my kids spiritual guide either.
 

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McCain is associated with <a href="http://youtube.com/watch?v=4qNi7tPanUA" target="_blank">John Hagee</a> who among other things claims that Katrina was punishment from God on America for being tolerant of homosexuality. He also believes that the Catholic Church is the Great Whore of Revelation.<br><br>
Maybe we can find a little dirt on Hillary's preacher?
 

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There is some big time context differences between what he said and what the founders of the Religous right said back in the day but at the cruxt, it was more or less the same message. We were being punished for our sins and God was not blessing America. It was the new Sodom and all that was gong wrong was because of Roe vs Wade. Presidents entertained at the White House some that said AIDS was God's way of handling the Gay situation.<br><br>
To me it's the proverbial "whose Ox is being gored" scenario. Many of this kook's naysayers believe Katrina hitting New Orleans was God's retribution. All the right wing candidates clamor for these guys nods. No real difference IMHO. As someone said, I've yet to hear anybody up in arms about this that would have ever voted for a Black Democrat in the first place.<br><br>
What I find more interesting is how prevalent some of these perceptions are in these religious communities. Right or wrong, we should be discussing why so many believe these things.
 

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Said much better than I ever could....<br><br><br><b>Obama's Minister Committed "Treason" But When My Father Said the Same Thing He Was a Republican Hero</b><br><br><a href="http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-schaeffer/obamas-minister-committe_b_91774.html" target="_blank">http://www.huffingtonpost.com/frank-...e_b_91774.html</a>
 

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<br><i>Edited because I think I misunderstood the above quote<br></i><br>
I find it disturbing that we consider someone's religious leader's comments <b>at all</b> when trying to elect them to a secular office. An association with this pastor is not proof<br>
of anything regarding Obama's own opinion on the matter, and we are given the option of voting for Obama, not his pastor.<br><br>
Now, consider GW Bush's own beliefs -- he has said himself that he's been called by God to serve in office, and that government-subsidized charities should follow the Bible as their only instruction manual. Those kinds of comments are of a different nature, and worthy of discussion, when proffered by the candidate him/herself. But the opinion of someone's church leader isn't really relevant.
 

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Discussion Starter · #17 ·
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This line from that article is relevant:<br>
"The hypocrisy of the right denouncing Obama, because of his minister's words, is staggering." It's relevant to me because you could say the same thing about both sides.<br><br>
Remember the Bob Jones University "scandal" during the 2000 election? Bush was criticised because he didn't denounce the University for it's anti-gay and anti-Catholic policies. This was "proof" that Bush agreed with the school's positions. Bush showed up at BJU (hee, hee) once, Obama showed up at this church for 20 years.<br><br>
Also, by saying that the people bothered by this would have never voted for a "black Democrat" is, IMO, implying racism. That's a pretty underhanded way of trying to stifle debate. I'm sure the tactic will be quite common in the general election, if Obama gets the nomination... but it's low.
 

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Actually, when I first saw Obama's book on the book stands, and began to read, I thought - maybe, just maybe, here is a candidate with some fresh perspective, some energy, and a drive to do things differently than the good ole boys club (both republican and democrat) that's been in power since I can remember. And though I've always been a republican, I was ready and willing to change my party in order to vote for him, pending a more thorough evaluation.<br><br>
I currently do not view him as my first choice, partially because I don't feel I can trust that he does <b>not</b> have a seperatest viewpoint/agenda. There is so much anger and devisiveness in our communities as it is. Throughout his campaign he has risen above the race issue, which has been refreshing and earned him a lot of points in my own view of him. But then I find that he has aligned himself with an association that promotes a seperatist mentality and view. And it's not just what the preacher said, but what the church itself "unashamedly" stands for. It's pretty much the same to me as if McCain belonged to a white's only men's club. Prejudice is predjudice, and no matter how you bottle it, it's still wrong.<br><br>
As for Frank Schaeffer, just because the GOP made him the golden boy, it doesn't make what he said right, and it doesn't make Wright's church less wrong.<br><br>
Hillary is looking better all the time.
 

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I wasn't trying to imply it. Based on my admittedly very limited experience it's the reality. All the people I personally know IRL who are now calling out the lynch mobs over this have always been bigots. Again, that's probably more a regional thing.
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
Okay, so everyone you know, who won't vote for Obama, is a racist. That doesn't mean that everyone who won't vote for Obama is a racist. That's the implication of your statement. The distinction is important.
 
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