[Tri-Tammy]

<p>I saw this earlier today and thought I'd post it here to see what all of you think about it.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.endurancenation.us/blog/training/the-case-against-brick-workouts/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The+Case+Against+Brick+Workouts+Ironman+Kona+Podcasts+Fall+Sale+Ends+Soon&utm_content=The+Case+Against+Brick+Workouts+Ironman+Kona+Podcasts+Fall+Sale+Ends+Soon+Preview+CID_1f2358f703f79cd23b720a5837fc7da8&utm_source=Email+marketing+software&utm_term=Read+More" target="_blank">http://www.endurancenation.us/blog/training/the-case-against-brick-workouts/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=The+Case+Against+Brick+Workouts+Ironman+Kona+Podcasts+Fall+Sale+Ends+Soon&utm_content=The+Case+Against+Brick+Workouts+Ironman+Kona+Podcasts+Fall+Sale+Ends+Soon+Preview+CID_1f2358f703f79cd23b720a5837fc7da8&utm_source=Email+marketing+software&utm_term=Read+More</a></p>
<p> </p>

 

[Muffin Queen]

<p>I find it interesting since I know 2 people using and EN plan for IMAZ and they both have been given many bricks to complete while I have been given far fewer and use another coach.  I will say taht the reduction in bricks personally has not hurt my run.  In fact my run off the bike has been better than ever.  There are owever other factors at play for me that could have easily caused the improvement.</p>

 

[pcsronbo]

<p>Must be careful here. At a certain LEVEL I think they are right. At a certain LEVEL I think they are wrong.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>For the mere mortals, I think they are wrong. I think it's critical to get used to running tired. It's critical to get past that legs feeling like crap feeling. It's critical to learn how to feel your body.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>MOST of the END audience seems to gravitate towards those not trying to SURVIVE an Ironman but COMPETE. Lots of super fast folks.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>And there is a ton of good stuff in their cool aid. tons. And I am a HUGE beleiver in the fact that EXECUTION is a critical and underrated portion of the Iron distance race. CC gave me much of the same advice that EN was preaching, so I had a huge comfort level in doing it. Some of the stuff EN preached really was great - like riding in a 10min box (not thinking any further than 10min down the road) and running smart off the bike, etc.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>BUT I think for someone who is trying to survive the day, bricks are critical. And yes, they are risky. But you won't know that until you train. Train like you race, race like you train.  Simple.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So, like any coaching advice - take with a grain of salt, think about YOU and YOUR GOALS and how the coaching meshes with your needs. I've been blessed with a coach who's been adaptable to my needs. I could NOW use an EN plan and probably do ok. I do not feel I could have done so 4 years ago...</p>

 

[Tri-Tammy]

<p><br><br>
 </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>pcsronbo</strong> <a href="/t/75543/ens-case-against-brick-workouts#post_2017956"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><p> </p>
<p>For the mere mortals, I think they are wrong. I think it's critical to get used to running tired. It's critical to get past that legs feeling like crap feeling. It's critical to learn how to feel your body.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>BUT I think for someone who is trying to survive the day, bricks are critical. And yes, they are risky. But you won't know that until you train. Train like you race, race like you train.  Simple.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>I agree with these statements- at least for me.  If I didn't practice it, it'd be a struggle for me mentally.  Hell, it's a struggle mentallly anywa. </p>
<p>It also gives me an opportunity to work on nutrition.  I can eat just about anything on the bike but that is most definitly not the case on the run.</p>

 

[Thor]

<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>pcsronbo</strong> <a href="/t/75543/ens-case-against-brick-workouts#post_2017956"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br><br><p>Must be careful here. At a certain LEVEL I think they are right. At a certain LEVEL I think they are wrong.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>For the mere mortals, I think they are wrong. I think it's critical to get used to running tired. It's critical to get past that legs feeling like crap feeling. It's critical to learn how to feel your body.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>MOST of the END audience seems to gravitate towards those not trying to SURVIVE an Ironman but COMPETE. Lots of super fast folks.</p>
</div>
</div>
<p> </p>
<p>Totally agreed but not necessarily in the order you raise. But point is... I agree.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Also, be careful when reading this article to read through to entirety, because they are making a case against brick workouts while also pointing out that they (brick workouts) also have a very legit place in certain training schedules.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>personally, I feel brick workouts can be tossed out, but only to a point. Once you get in your body and head that you can run off the bike, once you learn the feeling of running on heavy legs, and once you realize that often your wheels are spinning quite fast off the bike, and once you have mastered them... from then on out they are a waste of time... from a perspective of return on time invested.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>the other part of this that is not talked about is that when you master the bike -- when you get good and strong and fast on the bike -- brick workouts become far less necessary and even a waste of time. The stronger you are on the bike, the harder you will be able to ride and still run like the wind. If you're weak on the bike, you'll never run anyway; your legs will always feel heavy and dead. As I say time and again, triathlon is all about the bike. If you can't run before entering triathlon, then triathlon is all about the bike AND run. But know that the limiter will almost always be the bike.</p>

 

[Thor]

<p>Also should have said: Whether brick workouts are important to you -- that you even get benefit from them -- depends also on the duration of your workouts coupled with the race distance for which you are training. To run fast off the bike without missing a beat, you really need to do brick workouts (brick intervals are awesome for this) so that you can drop the bike and hammer out on the run at a pace that you will finish at -- so you're not giving back time while starting slow and gently warming up over the first mile. You'll drop several positions in the race if you can't start the run at race pace -- which is, well, all out anyway.</p>

 

[Alaska Mike]

<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>pcsronbo</strong> <a href="/t/75543/ens-case-against-brick-workouts#post_2017956"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style=""></a><br>
MOST of the END audience seems to gravitate towards those not trying to SURVIVE an Ironman but COMPETE. Lots of super fast folks.
<p> </p>
</div>
</div>
<p><br>
Really?  I've always had the exact opposite impression.  That EN is all about completing, not about competing.  I came to that conclusion based on fact that their stuff is all about holding back, holding back, holding back (i.e don't eat the paste) and then giving whatever you have left in the last six miles.  They constantly preach about ignoring what those around you are doing, which to me is what you do when you're trying to complete the race, you stay within your limits.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Mike</p>
<p> </p>

 

[Thor]

<p>Funny but I agree with Mike here. I think I say funny because I also agreed (to a point) with RonBo, but I think I misunderstood what he said to mean what Mike said. Still, my other words hold.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>From my view, and it is pretty good since I know and have known for years many in EN, including coaches, that EN caters primarily to those triathletes looking to survive. They are mostly out to complete. EN does have several who are out to compete, and some are quite good (and wind up crossing over to another local club that shall remain nameless but ryhimes with R2D2), but the majority are out to complete. It makes sense when you think about where the money is in the sport: the money is in idiots like you and me who need help in putting a plan together and following. Middle class in this sport will spend a lot of money on things like that. All of this is pretty well known.</p>

 

[MBannon]

<p>To me, the value of brick workouts is learning the appropriate pace on both the bike and the run.  I generally avoid them for most of the year, but start to incoroporate them a couple months before my first race of the season.  I keep doing them throughout race season.  I generally keep the run portion pretty short, no more than 2-4 miles, as that is plenty of time to dial in the pace without much risk of injury.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So I would agree with EN regarding the no-fitness-to-be-gained argument, but would certainly argue against eliminating them entirely.</p>

 

[4boysmom]

<p>My first couple of seasons I did lots of bricks.   For me it was learning to run off the bike.  Also, too, was learning that "fourth event" in triathlon--transition.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>This season I don't htink I did any bricks.  I was very happy with how this season went.  I'll be making some adjustments.  Not sure if that will include adding more bricks.</p>

 

[jroden]

<p>I love stuff with no evidence base that people employ based on feeling and intuition.  I have never felt the bricks were worth the tradeoff and the whole notion seemed to go against the idea of training fast to go fast.  People just like that they seem "hard" so they must by nature be good.</p>