[Nettie]

I was wondering if there was a general consensus on the paces at which mid-pack runners race. I know that the mid-packers tend to make up the largest segment of racers on a given course, but that's about all I know.<br><br>
So, my questions are<br>
1) What pace range constitutes the mid-pack?<br>
2) How many of these mid-packers go on to become front of the pack runners?<br>
2a) Is this even possible? Why or why not?

 

[Jensparks]

1) I'd say if you're consistently right around the middle of the finishers in most races, this defines you as mid-pack?<br><br>
2) I think it depends on genetics, training, and type of race their running<br><br>
2a) there's probably no way to know .... but yes, I think it's possible for those who have the right genetics.<br><br>
I consider myself a mid-packer, although I'm generally in the top 1/3 of the finishers in the races I run. Occasionally in a small race I'll place in my age group, which is a nice treat. I don't think that I have the ability to ever be a front-runner though. I think anyone can improve with proper training, rest, diet, etc., but there's only so much improvement that can be made before genetics come into play.

 

[RunningForT3]

I consider mid-packer those finishers between the 33% and the 67% percentile.<br>
So for a 600 runners race, it's those who rank 200 through 400.<br>
To become front pack... run faster <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"> Trip some competitors as well. <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"><br>
I started as a back-packer, moved to mid-pack, and now on short distances I can be in the top 15%. Just become front-pack in HMs too.<br>
I think up to a certain age, you keep moving up in the pack, mainly because the runners pool fills up from the bottom so you always get fresh BOP'ers.

 

[Flounder]

Depends - Most people talk about being competitive in local, state, region, national or international levels.<br><br>
Your ability to move from midpack to front runner is dependant on genetics and work ethic / time available.<br><br>
Most genetically gifted runners that are lazy can compete on the local/state level. A few less genetically endowed runners that work their ass off (80-100+ mile weeks) can compete local / state.<br><br>
The one thing to keep in mind - It takes 5-7 years of consistent training to even get into the neighborhood of your genetic potential.<br><br>
My definition of midpack (Local State)?<br><br>
1-2% of runners at the race with a chance to win<br>
everyone else in midpack.<br><br>
But I have noticed ...<br>
There typically is a second group (2-5%) that will never win, but are clearly ahead of anyone else (Gap)<br><br>
and ...<br><br>
There is another group that has a chance at age group awards (5-10%)<br><br>
and ... another group (25%) at the back of the pack that generally seems more social than intensely competing.<br><br>
that means ... that leaves @ 55-60% in the middle for midpackers.

 

[arc918]

It also depends on the race. At Honolulu or LA the fields are full of slower runners and walkers because the courses stay open for so long. As a result a typical back of the packer will finish mid-pack, etc.<br><br>
The opposite is true at Boston. With all the qualifiers in for the race, the typical front of the packer may end up finishing mid-pack. I guess it depends how far at the front you usually run.

 

[missy1102]

i read somewhere the average finishing time at the chicago marathon is 4:25 and at NYC 4:20.<br><br>
i finished 4:20 at chicago and 4:15 at the NYC so i consider myself a middle of the packer.

 

[Flounder]

Can I ask - Why we care?<br><br>
Why do you run? Is the term "Midpack offensive"?<br><br>
Is trying to move out of "Midpack" a motivator?<br><br>
My motivation is to the best I can.<br><br>
To Missy's point at the Womens' Olympic trials April 20th. Midpack will be between 2:40-2:50 marathon time.

 

[coacht]

I have generally considered Flounder's top 10% of all runners in <i>most</i> races (Boston and Olympic qualifiers don't count) to be the front of the pack - the rest are middle of the pack and back of the packers.<br><br>

 

[Nettie]

I was honestly just curious as to how to categorize myself generally speaking.<br><br>
I do not find midpack offensive. I run because I enjoy it a lot, but also to become a better runner.<br><br>
Thanks for everyone's comments/answers so far. Good stuff. <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif">

 

[arc918]

<a href="http://www.marathonguide.com/features/Articles/2007RecapOverview.cfm" target="_blank">http://www.marathonguide.com/feature...apOverview.cfm</a><br><br>
you can always statistic yourself to death with the marathonguide data...

 

[Nettie]

<img alt="lol.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/lol.gif"> Thanks arc!

 

[QuixoticNotions]

Midpack runners are people who finish in the middle of the race. Front of the pack I typically consider the top 33%, bottom is the lowest 33%, midpack is everything in the middle.<br><br>
I define myself as a back of the packer who can fit into middle of the pack with a lot of training. <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif"><br><br>
So whether mid-packers can move to the front, I think that depends on the person. Some yes, some no.

 

[fox-runr]

I usually don't base the term "mid-packer" on any one given race. I think of it more as a term that describes a person that consistently puts in an average amount of miles, has average genetics, and isn't going to finish first or last in any given race.<br><br>
If Deena has a bad day at the trials and runs a 2:50, is she suddenly a mid-packer? No, she will have finished mid-pack in that race. If I go go Rinkydink 5k race and win because 99% people decide to pull a beer cart behind them, am I suddenly a front runner? (and yes, I've run a race that people pulled beer in a wagon)?<br><br>
Can a midpacker become a frontpacker? sure, with time and effort, but it'd be someone that probably had the genetics to begin with and needed to run more, lose useless weight, train right, or all the above. A genetically gifted, lazy (Flounder's term) runner is not going to finish back of the pack. Even if Lance Armstrong never ran a day in his life, he was never ever going to finish back of the pack, with a little effort the guy is beating 99% of us here. (Flounder could still hold him off :notworthy<img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif">

 

[SLOjim]

I think the term "mid-packer" can be defined however you want. I always think of the mid-packers as slower than the top 10% or 15% (in most races) and faster than the last 25% to 33%. Most fast runners start training fast and get faster with the proper training..... a lot is genetics.

 

[runninirish]

I think a mid packer is someone who goes into a race knowing that he/she won't win...but won't be the last one stumbling in. That is to say, there is really no chance to win...(most "front runners" always think they at least have a shot)...but they know they have trained well enough to finish the entire race strong...(knowing their training has prepared them for the demands). I was a mid packer in my early years, but now feel like a front runner...every race I enter, I always think I can be in the "mix". Sometimes I am...most often I watch from just a little ways back <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"> (but I did win a small 5k last year!)...so yes, I think you can move up...gentics and work ethic play a huge roll in that....

 

[Flounder]

Fox-Runr<br><br>
I am overweight and will only have 7 weeks of training @ Boston - Lance will kick my butt, unless he DNS or DNF. I am confident that Fox-Runr will kick my butt unless you DNS or DNF and I would be happy for you the more you kick my ass! Hopefully by 25-30 minutes <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif">

 

[fox-runr]

I'm heading up to Dick Lytie (uwgb) for an MP run this weekend, let me know if you are interested? (there are two hills if I remember correctly...it's been awhile)<br>
(doesn't start 'til 10 am....you probably have 20 miles in by then <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif">)

 

[Flounder]

Thanks for the invite - I think I am going to do a double long this weekend<br><br>
If I can get 30+ / 20+ I will be all set for Ice age if I decide to do it.<br><br>
I am sure if I ran all out 1/2 marathon and you ran MP - I would not be able to keep up.

 

[fox-runr]

don't keep up. switch the days around and run with Mike during the race. (I think he's doing around 7's). When you finish, we can tack on a few more miles. It's only $15 on race day

 

[Flounder]

You are getting a definate maybe <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif"><br><br>
7's are probably my current 1/2 marathon max