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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has anyone ever used this plan? I'm considering it after having used his Training Plan A for my first two marathons.<br><br>
One of the big differences with the Elite Plan is that he has you going long (18-22 miles) <i>every</i> weekend. On top of that, it isn't usually just an LSD type of run, but rather has a lot of 10k and marathon paced running incorporated into those long runs. Now, I managed to complete the A Plan with relative ease on the same amount of mileage, but that plan alternated LSD runs and speedwork sessions every other weekend. My fear is that doing this type of running (the mileage combined with the speed) every weekend is going to beat the ever-loving hell out of my legs.<br><br>
Background: Mileage shouldn't be an issue for me - I'll put in around 3k miles this year. I peak at around 80 mpw during marathon training season and average around 70 mpw throughout the plan - usually including a couple of double sessions each week. I have run the two aforementioned marathons with a 3:11 PR. Shooting for 2:59-3:05 at Philadelphia depending on how my training and my fall racing season progresses.<br><br>
All thoughts are appreciated.
 

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I hope that Flounder or fox-runr chime in here. I know that they've both done quite well with DRF.<br><br>
My experience with JD is a little less concrete. I've only done the Plan A from edition #1, which in my view is a little less difficult than in DRF edition #2.<br><br>
In general terms, I am a fan of Daniels' plans. Yet in my experience, I had to scale back the quality in order to stay healthy to make it to race day. I tend to average 60mpw in my marathon seasons.<br><br>
I'll watch your progress with curiosity. I am using a modified version of Plan A peaking at 60mpw for myself and my group this season.<br><br>
Good luck CoachT.
 

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I don't think you'll get a lot of people here (yet) who have tried this plan or something similar. Sue (fox-rnr) probably. You might try on the other site for now.<br><br>
I will say that I know several (like, 8-10) maniacs who are 2:50-3:10 marathoners and they take a fairly similar approach to their weekend long runs. Some do better with it than others.<br><br>
It is similar to the schedule I use, including the weekly mileage. Though I am way slower than you, I will say that I have sped up considerably since I started running again last year.<br><br>
Will your legs feel beat up? maybe. It's the elite schedule. Can you get used to it? Absolutely. That's how the training stimulus works sometimes... you get your ass kicked and you adapt.<br><br>
Cheers for considering a schedule that you essentially ripped me for sometime back. I mean the 'cheers' part sincerely even if you choose against this schedule.<br><br>
I personally think that sticking with D-A would get you where you want to be... but there's a lot to be said for mixing things up so that you don't get bored.
 

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Thread hijacker here...<br><br>
I have never used any Daniels plan. I am considering it for my next HM. DRF does not have any HM plan per se, but I could use the Marathon Training plans, and just leave the max milage lower. For example, I could use TP A with a max milage of 40-45 or so? I have run 4 HMs (two this spring, the others are a few years back), and had reached a pretty consisten 30+ mpw level for May and June. Currently scaled back for a few reasons, but mostly to (1) recover from some back issues, and (2) was planning for July to be a step back month anyways.<br><br>
Thoughts?
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Tim -<br><br>
Daniels says somewhere in the book (I'm assuming in the marathon specific chapter toward the end) that half and full marathon training is very similar (in that they are mostly aerobic races) and that his marathon training plan is recommended for half training as well. Simply scale back the mileage and shorten the longest training runs. Oh and be sure to scale back the speedwork so that <b>T</b> paced running is less than 10% of your weekly mileage and <b>I</b> paced running is less than something like 6-7% of weekly mileage.<br><br>
Also - Thanks to roots and SR for their advice.
 

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<b>T</b> - I don't know the plan specifically but the long run every weekend coupled with some fast miles in the long run is pretty much how I train. With your base of miles, I'll bet you'll be able to get through it OK but I would watch yourself carefully. And when the schedule calls for some slow recovry miles, do them painfully slow. When you get up into that kind of mileage, they can't all be fast or you're heading for trouble. If you need to back off one week or skip some midweek workouts, do it.<br><br>
How many quality workouts during the week does the plan have you doing? For me, I'm looking at a Tues track workout (mostly shorter stuff - 400's and 800's), a Thurs tempo run (longer - 4-8 miles @ tempo), and a weekend long run. If there's a race I plan to do, I would probaby try to get in a long run during the week or do the race as part of my long run, realizing I probably won't race my best.
 

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CoachT: Sounds like you used Plan A from Daniels' second edition, because I was a little thrown when you said that Plan A didn't have a long run every week. I was ????, yes it does. I followed Plan A from Daniels first book which has MP run, TLT, and LSD alternating...so indeed a long run "every" week. I had to check Plan A from the new book and sure enough....there are "cut back" weeks. So, from my perspective there really isn't that much difference from the Plan A that I used and the new edition Elite Program. The main differences in that there is alot of multiple effort long runs and the long runs are a little longer. In the original Plan A, you ran 22 miles or 2.5 hours max. The elite program will exceed that. So, one thought is that you could get a copy of Daniels first book and try Program A and then transition to Elite program of new book. I personally, like the concept of elite program's multiple effort Tempo long run vs. Program A's TLT.<br><br><br>
Thoughts about Daniels for HM: I really hate to disagree with the expert, but the HM doesn't use the same systems as the marathon. I'd use Daniels' for maybe the 1-2 halfs (good base building) and train less aerobically for 3-4 (more like a 10k training program) where you have to deal with run very close to your lactate threshold. I use my lactate threshold zones for training and marathon running is zone 2 and hm is zone 3, so if you train a marathon program, you will only be able run a little faster than your marathon pace. Daniels program has the MP runs and T runs.<br><br>
HM pace is neither, but if you are "improving" as the marathon program progresses, it "could" be awfully close to what you believe your current T pace to be. So to me it'd make sense to adjust the Tempo runs in the marathon program to reflect the correct pace. This is the pace that you want to "push". I'd just replace the tempo run. I do up/downs. Run 5 minutes at close to 10k pace and then 5 minutes at believed HM pace. repeat. should be able to do 30 minutes, or the paces are too fast. Next week 40 minutes. If you can do it for one hour (which is about a person's LT), you increase the up or the down pace.<br><br>
If you think about it, a person's LT is about an hour. Say, you run a half in 1:40 and a marathon in 3:30, is that 1:40 of running closer to one hour of running (LT running) or 3:30 of marathon running? So, why train like you are running a marathon? It's easy to say that marathon is double the half and the half is more than double the 10k, but if you look at time versus miles, you get a different picture.
 

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See fox-runr...you have very interesting training ideas and I really hope you voice them. I definitely agree with training for a HM at faster than M pace. That's about all I can say though since I have never raced or trained for either a half or full.
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Thanks Chris - The plan called for two quality workouts per week - the longer runs I mentioned initially plus another - usually a cruise interval-type of workout. Racing shouldn't interfere much at all as I only race 4-5 times per year.<br><br>
Yes, I was using the second edition of the book. I may need to find a copy of the first edition this week and take a look. Thanks for the tip.<br><br>
You know, I remember wondering during my last training cycle how I was ever going to run the half time that I wanted b/c I never ran that fast during my workouts. Daniels had me at a marathon pace of approx. 7:15 and a LT pace of 6:53-5. I ended up running the half at a 6:43 pace, but now wonder whether I could have been doing my intervals at a faster pace. Based on my latest half performance Daniels is now calling for me to do those same intervals at a 6:36-8 pace. Arrghh! Too much to think about. Thanks again for your thoughts fox-runr.<br><br>
Trevor
 

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Thanks for the input. I guess the way I look at my own personal situation, my last HM (about 3 weeks ago) was 2:13. No where near 1:40, and certainly far removed from the 1 hour LT range. So for a slow poke such as myself, I need to develop the systems that are stressed by a faster marathoner. Aerobic base, effiecient use of fuel stores, ability to deal with heat buildup over 2 hours, etc.<br><br>
Coach T actually helped me finish the last mile or so of that HM, and as he can attest, what was stressing me at that point was just being out of breath. At a pace that was about a minute slower than what I had maintained for 10 miles, I was literally sucking for air.
 

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I'd agree with you, which is why we all have to remember that the books/plan are a guide, you are already reading your individual needs and assessing what you need to work on.<br>
If you are capable of running well over 10 miles in training, I would guess that your "sucking for air" is more nutritional than anything. I've had people scoff at me for saying that I need a gu at mile 9 or 10 of a half, but I really struggle with the last 1-1.5 without it. If you are a heavy sweater, you may even consider salt when your out there for 2 hours.<br><br><br>
CoachT- at 3k you shouldn't have any problem with a long run every week. You have enough time before Philly that you might consider a few weeks of repeats, not intervals, before jumping into Daniels' program. It might be the difference between 2:59 and 3:05. Doing high-end reps can trick yourself into the tempo pace being surprisingly easy. Maybe Ziggy can give input, but I think the land down under believes in speedwork at the front-end versus the hard weeks at the end mixed with MP runs is beneficial.
 

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I have <i>tried</i> to use the Daniels' plan as a low mileage approach. My lack of diligence notwithstanding, I don't think it works. Take a look at the very last week of the plan. The mileage that week asks you to run was typically more than many of the higher mileage (80%, 90%) weeks in the middle of the plan. I think you should be thinking of 55-60 mile maximum weeks at a minimum (does that make sense?). Anything less than 55-60 I think is lower than what the plan is calibrated for. You'd have to cut down on training times/distances elsewhere.<br><br>
I love Daniels' plan as an intellectual exercise. I just don't think I'm athlete enough to take it on as written. Your mileage may vary. <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"><br><br>
Cheers,<br>
Billy
 

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If I recall correctly, Daniels' Running Formula does not include a HM plan. He actually says to follow the 10K plan, and figure out how to hold that pace for the additional distance!<br><br>
Cheers,<br>
Billy
 

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This is very much an intellectual exercise for me at this point. I have used a variety of training for my past HMs, and I am always trying to learn more. I have never put in the volume of quality work that is required for his programs.
 

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no, he actually lumps it in with the marathon.<br><br>
Pfitz's "Road Racing for Serious Runners" has a plan for 15k to half marathon with alot of workouts in the 2-3 minute range (pushing the Voxmax) and lots of LT runs (pace you can run for one hour). If I were not a marathoner and just wanted a half plan, I'd pick up that book. I also used Daniels' because I never gave a rip about halfs.
 

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Here's what I was remembering, with a portion that back up what you say as well:
<blockquote><p>"For this reason, I don't present a half-marathon schedule. Instead I propose that elite runners should basically train for a 10K and be willing to hang in there for an hour in the race."<br><br>
[skipping forward slightly]<br><br>
On the other hand, for runners out there racing a half-marathon for a couple of hours, many stresses the same as they would facing a marathon...so following a marathon training schedule might be the best way to go."<br><br></p></blockquote>
<i>Daniels' Running Formula</i>, 2d edition, p256.
 

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Glad this is included in 2nd edition. It makes perfect sense to me. I do own the 2nd edition, but stopped following Daniels by that time.<br><br>
just out of curiosity. In your copy is the chart Table 3.2 f'd up on page 55? My chart doesn't include interval or repetition pace for anyone with a vdot of 58 and above.
 

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In my copy, Table 3.2 goes from pages 52-55 and has VDOT values from 30 to 85. I haven't looked too closely at it, but no, it doesn't look f'd up. <img alt="smile.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/smile.gif"><br><br>
Cheers,<br>
Billy
 

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Dr. Daniels mentioned it was something that would be fix on a second print. <img alt="hello2.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/hello2.gif">. Not that I "needed" Vdot that high.
 
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