Combining HM and Tri plans

Tri-Tammy · Feb 9, 2011

I'm in the process of layering my hm plan onto my tri plan and I thought I'd ask the experts what you think.
 
My hm plan has me running 4 days a week: easy, tempo/speed, easy, long. 
My tri plan has me biking 3 x, swimming 3 x and running 3 x each week. 
 
Where do you think I should put my 4th run? It's easy short mileage. Drop it? Add it every so often as a brick to my long bike? Do it before my bike?

hobey · Feb 9, 2011

First off, and you will hate this question, what are your goals? To run the HM well, to do the tris well, to finish all solidly? If the first, focus on the run and drop a bike or swim. If the second or third, just run 3X a week, drop the 4th run or just do it if you feel like it.

mrscoby78 · Feb 10, 2011

I think it depends on where your strengths lie. Me? I'm a runner who dabbles in tri's. So I could easily drop a run in favor of more swimming and biking. Also, the swimming and biking will help your running tremendously....where running doesn't really help your swimming and biking. 
 
I think maybe throwing that easy run in as a brick with your bike isn't a bad idea. Maybe not every week...but every other week?

cak73 · Feb 10, 2011

My training plan for an April marathon and June HIM (also a sprint in May and sprint in July) has me running 3x a week (long easy, intermediate with progressive tempo, short easy with striders at the end), cycling 2-3x a week (all zn2 with high cadence until a couple of weeks after the marathon then I have some zn4 intervals) and swimming 2x a week. Have only done one brick so far this year, but will be adding them at the end of April, combining long bike/short run or short bike/long run. For now through April, my bricks will be just running for 5-10 min off of the bike. Bike volume really takes off at the beginning of May, while my run volume is nearly cut in half.

jroden · Feb 10, 2011

You could alternate weeks of 3-4 days running, where the 3 days weeks have a bit of an increase in long run miles, or even just do what you feel like doing and get yourself in shape to do the races and modify as you go along based on how you are feeling. Following a plan out of some book might not serve you best.

Tri-Tammy · Feb 10, 2011

Quote:
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<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by mrscoby78 <a href="/forum/thread/72547/combing-hm-and-tri-plans#post_1982710"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a> I think it depends on where your strengths lie. Me? I'm a runner who dabbles in tri's. So I could easily drop a run in favor of more swimming and biking. Also, the swimming and biking will help your running tremendously....where running doesn't really help your swimming and biking. 
 
I think maybe throwing that easy run in as a brick with your bike isn't a bad idea. Maybe not every week...but every other week?
 
 
 
 
 
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 Running is definitely not my strength. So I hesitate to get rid of a 4th run altogether. But I do like the idea of every other week- either as a brick or as a morning run on a bike day.
 

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by jroden <a href="/forum/thread/72547/combing-hm-and-tri-plans#post_1982749"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a> You could alternate weeks of 3-4 days running, where the 3 days weeks have a bit of an increase in long run miles, or even just do what you feel like doing and get yourself in shape to do the races and modify as you go along based on how you are feeling. Following a plan out of some book might not serve you best.
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Oooh, I really like this idea!!! I know that I have some back-off weeks with low mileage for recovery. And I'll definitely listen to my body. <img alt="wink.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/wink.gif" style="width:16px;height:16px;">

Tri-Tammy · Feb 10, 2011

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by hobey <a href="/forum/thread/72547/combing-hm-and-tri-plans#post_1982673"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a> First off, and you will hate this question, what are your goals? To run the HM well, to do the tris well, to finish all solidly? If the first, focus on the run and drop a bike or swim. If the second or third, just run 3X a week, drop the 4th run or just do it if you feel like it.
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My spring race is a warm-up to my tri season. I'm also hoping to get an idea of what I can do at Girlfriends. <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif" style="width:16px;height:16px;">

juliemboyle · Feb 10, 2011

What are the dates of your races?

Tri-Tammy · Feb 10, 2011

Julie- the hm is June 5th and the oly is July 16th.

hobey · Feb 10, 2011

Which is more important? Is the HM an A race or is the oly the A race. If it were important to me to do well in the HM, I'd do a running focus and drop a swim or bike here and there. If the tri is more important, I'd stick with a more balanced plan. The HM mileage will be plenty to get you through an oly 10K. 

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Tri-Tammy <a href="/forum/thread/72547/combing-hm-and-tri-plans#post_1982761"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by hobey <a href="/forum/thread/72547/combing-hm-and-tri-plans#post_1982673"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> First off, and you will hate this question, what are your goals? To run the HM well, to do the tris well, to finish all solidly? If the first, focus on the run and drop a bike or swim. If the second or third, just run 3X a week, drop the 4th run or just do it if you feel like it.
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My spring race is a warm-up to my tri season. I'm also hoping to get an idea of what I can do at Girlfriends. <img alt="biggrin.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif" style="width:16px;height:16px;"> 

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Alaska Mike · Feb 11, 2011

My initial thought was to have you drop one of the easy runs because those are typically recovery runs that the plan author just wants you getting some movement on those days and you'll be getting that through your other workouts. However, that would have you running three days a week while training for a HM, and I think that's too few.
 
In my opinion, going into a Oly under-trained is a lot less of an issue than going into a HM under-trained. I would stick with the 4 days a week running and drop the occasional bike if you find you don't have enough energy or time. Once you are done with the HM your running base should carry you through an Oly run without problems and you'll just need to focus on speed for the run plus the bike/swim.
 
Mike

juliemboyle · Feb 11, 2011

I agree with Mike. I am training for HM on May 7th and Oly on June 4th. I love doing an HM prior to Oly. So, I would recommend the 4X run until HM, then drop down (you can be fine with only 2 runs if needed) and bike focus for Oly. The HM training gives you a great base for the season.

KitKat · Feb 11, 2011

I'm another doing a HM (May 15) followed by an Oly (July 3). I'm basically doing the same thing...4 runs a week (2 easy, one long and one speedwork). I'm also in the pool 2x a week for 2.5 hours total and I try to get on the bike 3x a week. If something has to go, which it often does, it is the bike right now. Like Julie says, after the HM, run will likely be scaled back to 3x (including one brick) and the 3x a week bike with be non negotiable.

ericd256 · Feb 11, 2011

put the short easy 4th run after a bike workout and get a nice brick workout.

jroden · Feb 11, 2011

My belief is many triathletes allow themselves to decondition way too much during the winter when they should actually be building volume. The net result is each year is largely consumed by re-building the base through a long and tedious build in weekly volume leading into some big race. As a result, much of the time on the bike is spent doing easy recovery miles to get over the soreness that always come with this phase. This "diesel power" building is best done this time of year and then it's pretty easy to compete in both a triathlon and a longer running race without having to incorporate a multi-month plan, just do a few longer runs and some tempo and good to go. Building volume and going fast are not usually happening at the same time.
 
One easy week a year is what you get at the end of the season, and one for a mid season break. The other 50 you get to enjoy healthy daily exercise, drink up life is short.

Tri-Tammy · Feb 11, 2011

Quote:
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<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Alaska Mike <a href="/forum/thread/72547/combing-hm-and-tri-plans#post_1982920"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a> In my opinion, going into a Oly under-trained is a lot less of an issue than going into a HM under-trained. I would stick with the 4 days a week running and drop the occasional bike if you find you don't have enough energy or time. Once you are done with the HM your running base should carry you through an Oly run without problems and you'll just need to focus on speed for the run plus the bike/swim.
 
Mike
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This is kind of what I've been thinking. I am following the same Oly plan as last year and the one thing I learned- it didn't have enough running in it. Even before the HM, I was trying to figure out a way to add some more run time. 

 <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by juliemboyle <a href="/forum/thread/72547/combing-hm-and-tri-plans#post_1982950"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a> The HM training gives you a great base for the season.
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Exactly why I'm running a spring HM. <img alt="icon_thumleft.gif" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/icon_thumleft.gif" style="width:22px;height:20px;">
 
 <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by ericd256 <a href="/forum/thread/72547/combing-hm-and-tri-plans#post_1983046"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a> put the short easy 4th run after a bike workout and get a nice brick workout.
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 I'm definitely doing this- probably every other week.

Alaska Mike · Feb 12, 2011

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by jroden <a href="/forum/thread/72547/combining-hm-and-tri-plans#post_1983064"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> One easy week a year is what you get at the end of the season, and one for a mid season break. The other 50 you get to enjoy healthy daily exercise, drink up life is short.
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Interesting comment. I find that with my typical spring marathon, fall Ironman schedule that after my Ironman in September I need a longer break than one week. Maybe the difference is just in terminology. I take a month to month and a half off of structured training. But during that period I'm still working out when I feel like it, I just don't have a structured plan or a coach giving me specific workouts. I find if I take that time off, come November I'm ready to hit the training consistently again. If I don't take the time off, I'm burnt-out come mid summer.
 
Mike

jroden · Feb 12, 2011

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Alaska Mike <a href="/forum/thread/72547/combining-hm-and-tri-plans#post_1983121"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> <div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by jroden <a href="/forum/thread/72547/combining-hm-and-tri-plans#post_1983064"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> One easy week a year is what you get at the end of the season, and one for a mid season break. The other 50 you get to enjoy healthy daily exercise, drink up life is short.
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Interesting comment. I find that with my typical spring marathon, fall Ironman schedule that after my Ironman in September I need a longer break than one week. Maybe the difference is just in terminology. I take a month to month and a half off of structured training. But during that period I'm still working out when I feel like it, I just don't have a structured plan or a coach giving me specific workouts. I find if I take that time off, come November I'm ready to hit the training consistently again. If I don't take the time off, I'm burnt-out come mid summer.
 
Mike
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I agree, those long running races require some recovery time. I guess what I mean is time away from exercise for an extended period. Once your body is used to daily exercise as a baseline condition, a period of easy trail running, bike touring or swimming around in the lake will maintain the aerobic base. Doing a succession of "Runners world 12 weeks to your marathon" training plans over a period of years doesn't make a great deal of sense given what we know about periodization in training schedules. Develop the base, build the capacity to go fast then race a lot.

Combining HM and Tri plans

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