Can I rant here?

coachie · Nov 1, 2010

please!
 
OK, so Grad school class. Assignment was a "group analysis" of two different articles. Three people in my group, including me. 
 
So the original due date is Friday, but the instructor pushed it back to Monday. So, by Thursday we had a google doc all set up, and each of us had posted some thoughts on the articles. But, we needed to organize them into a paper and do some editing. So I e-mailed the other two, and asked if anyone was willing to be the writer. I also said that I would write the paper, if they wanted me to, and then they could help edit. Basically I was willing, I just needed to know what they think.
 
Friday comes and goes, no replies.
 
Saturday comes and goes, no replies.
 
Sunday, the one dude, writes at the bottom of the article, "looks like everyone has shared some thoughts, now we need someone to organize it into a paper". Well Duh. I emailed you that four days ago.
 
By Sunday evening, last night, after trick or treating with the kids, I check the e-mail and the google doc. Nothing done.
 
So, I sit down and write the 4 and a half page paper by myself. It took me about 3 hours to do it correctly, and I got done after midnight. I then copied and pasted it to the google doc, so they could read it. And I e-mailed it to them, in word format.
 
I told them to look it over and get back to me, as it is due today(Monday). So I get to work, and there is nothing done.
 
So, I wait until after lunch, figuring I would give them over their lunch hour to read it over and make any changes.
 
1 pm comes and goes, and nothing. So I turned it in to the professor.
 
And I am PISSED. The girl in the group, hasn't done a thing to the document, or answered an e-mail since last Wednesday. The other "dude" (I'm calling him a dude because he is in his early 20's) basically only "checked in" yesterday to see if it was done I guess.
 
These are "Graduate students"? Good Lord. No wondering why I'm ace-ing the course, I actually turn things in on time.
 
So, we have now turned in our "group paper" written and edited by me, and me only. The two of them combined couldn't have put in more than 20 minutes writing down their thoughts, and that's being generous. I have over four hours invested in it. 
 
I'm debating contacting the professor. But, I do have another "group paper" due in a few weeks, and I don't want to burn any bridges before I get where I'm going, and I don't know if we are in the same groups or not.

wipaddler · Nov 1, 2010

I had that happen on a couple of projects also. And when I brought it up the prof stated that she was well aware of the situation and it would be handled appropriately and it was. Do you guys run on an online Blackboard system where everyone has to have a certain number of posts a week?

RaisingArizonainNH · Nov 1, 2010

It doesn't sound like they would be doing much to harm you if you were paired with them again.. heck they already aren't dong much of anything ! I would contact the professor and sound him out on it .... The other two should not be taking a free ride and getting full credit on your back. The professor should be able to tell that id he assigns any individidula work ... I would think their level of investment in teh course would be apparent in that case.
 
 At any rate it has got to be super frustrating for you! Hang in there !

4boysmom · Nov 1, 2010

I always hated, Hated, HATED "group" projects!!! It was ALWAYS one, maybe two, people doing all the work and the rest of the group free loading.

coachie · Nov 1, 2010

me too, but for some naive reason, I thought Graduate School would be different. Wrong.
<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by 4boysmom <a href="/forum/thread/70931/can-i-rant-here#post_1958985"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a> I always hated, Hated, HATED "group" projects!!! It was ALWAYS one, maybe two, people doing all the work and the rest of the group free loading.
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Mrtambalynman · Nov 1, 2010

It all depends on your group. Fortunately, I didn't have any group projects in grad school. I feel for you. I'd let the prof know - I mean what are they going to do - start participating to show you up? 

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by coachie <a href="/forum/thread/70931/can-i-rant-here#post_1958990"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a> 
me too, but for some naive reason, I thought Graduate School would be different. Wrong.
 
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Mrtambalynman · Nov 1, 2010

FWIW I read something recently that said the new generation doesn't check their e-mails. Maybe texting you group members next time might elicit better participation. I know - its bullshit to have to do that, but it may help.

jcumming · Nov 1, 2010

Gee I don't know what you are complaining about. I went through my master's program without doing a single piece of work. I just picked good people to be in a group with.
 
<img alt="biggrin.gif" class="bbcode_smiley" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies//biggrin.gif">

rlemert · Nov 1, 2010

As a former professor in a field (engineering) that frequently requires students to participate in group-work, I would say that one of the primary purposes of having students participate in a group exercise is so that they learn how to do so. You, having been out in the "real world", probably already have experienced the importance of being able to work with others (although your problem suggest that you still have something to learn about doing so effectively - see my comments below). Your partners, who appear to be going through the traditional grad school route (undergrad degree directly to graduate program with no intervening practical experience) have not.
 
 For future projects, I would suggest that once you receive your assignment you get together with your group mates and schedule an initial planning meeting for as soon as is practical. Right after class would not be too soon, but make sure whenever it's scheduled that it is soon and that everyone involved has agreed to the appointment and verified that they will be there.
 
 This first meeting will be an over-all planning session for the entire project. You don't need to decide all of the details at once, but you do need to set major milestones. Set due dates for each milestone, but be flexibly rigid. (I.E. We don't have to meet to discuss what we've read on Friday, but we'd better do so some time the end of the week and no later than Saturday night.) Make sure everyone has these milestone dates in their calendars.
 
 At each meeting, make sure that everyone reports on their progress since the previous meeting. Make it clear that the group will continue on even if someone has not completed their task. The rest of the meeting's activities will depend on the nature of the project and the milestone, but you'll be able to figure out the appropriate next steps.
 
 Finally, before anyone leaves the meeting, make sure that everyone has an assigment related to the project for the next meeting and has agreed to a time and place. (This is probably the key step.) Make the assignments as specific as possible (e.g. 'x' will write a rough draft by Thursday, and 'y' and 'z' will post comments by Saturday morning.)
 
 I'd also suggest making sure each of you has a voice contact available for each member of your team. Don't just rely on emails - if 'y' hasn't contributed any comments by 10:00pm Friday, call the sucker up and remind him/her that you're expecting comments in the morning.
 
 
 You can make a remark to your professor if you want about your teammate's contributions, but instructors generally have a feel for who's carrying their weight and who isn't.
 
 
 (Upon writing the above, it occurred to me that while we try to encourage teamwork as faculty, we are also expecting the students to figure out how to do it on their own. We really should spend more time telling the students what it takes to make a successful team.)

jcumming · Nov 2, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by rlemert <a href="/forum/thread/70931/can-i-rant-here#post_1959022"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a> As a former professor in a field (engineering) that frequently requires students to participate in group-work, I would say that one of the primary purposes of having students participate in a group exercise is so that they learn how to do so. You, having been out in the "real world", probably already have experienced the importance of being able to work with others (although your problem suggest that you still have something to learn about doing so effectively - see my comments below). Your partners, who appear to be going through the traditional grad school route (undergrad degree directly to graduate program with no intervening practical experience) have not.
 
 

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 Actually the team issues that coachie is seeing in grad school are pretty much the same as the teams I worked with in the "real world". Like in most things 20% of the people do 80% of the work. Maybe it is good training to see that's how it works.

rlemert · Nov 2, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by jcumming <a href="/forum/thread/70931/can-i-rant-here#post_1959045"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> Actually the team issues that coachie is seeing in grad school are pretty much the same as the teams I worked with in the "real world". Like in most things 20% of the people do 80% of the work. Maybe it is good training to see that's how it works.
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Now that you mention it ....
 
Actually, I remember seeing an article several years ago that talked about this. It said that the roll of the team was to provide the anonymity necessary for the one person that was going to solve the problem to do so.

Tech Tee · Nov 2, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by jcumming <a href="/forum/thread/70931/can-i-rant-here#post_1959045"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> Actually the team issues that coachie is seeing in grad school are pretty much the same as the teams I worked with in the "real world". Like in most things 20% of the people do 80% of the work. Maybe it is good training to see that's how it works.
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 As a Software Engineer who has pretty much always worked on LARGE projects for the last 30 years (hence, always on a team), this is absolutely true. But, the difference is, supervisors are more clued in on who is really working, and who is not. And it usually translates to a good or poor performance review (but not always).
 
Professors have so many students, I don't think they have this luxury.

ym · Nov 2, 2010

The students in Coachie's group don't really deserve a grade, but they'll get one, the one Coachie earned. It sucks, because these same people graduate, go to work, and pull the same crap until they get a bad review. They're shocked when it happens, and by then, their coworkers are pissed and demotivated. What's really missing from academic group projects is management and accountability.
 
rlemert - encouraging teamwork is a whole lot different than assigning group projects. The problem with assigning group projects is that you have a group of peers, none of whom are in a specific leadership role and you expect them all to sort it out and do the project. It doesn't work well in the academic environment because there really isn't anyone wholly responsible for managing the project - they all are. If you want students to learn how to work as a team like they would in the real world, create teams at the beginning of the semester and have enough assignments so that each team member has an opportunity to be the manager on at least one project. The students also need to know that their progress and contributions will be measured and that they will earn THEIR grade, not the group grade.

ym · Nov 2, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Tech Tee <a href="/forum/thread/70931/can-i-rant-here#post_1959089"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> As a Software Engineer who has pretty much always worked on LARGE projects for the last 30 years (hence, always on a team), this is absolutely true. But, the difference is, supervisors are more clued in on who is really working, and who is not. And it usually translates to a good or poor performance review (but not always).
 
Professors have so many students, I don't think they have this luxury.
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Exactly! And there are managers who are ultimately responsible for the success or failure of the project so it behooves them to manage the team effectively.

coachie · Nov 2, 2010

I'm still weighing over whether to tell the professor, or not.
 
On one hand, yes I did all the work.
 
On the other hand, I don't want to be a "tattle" and someone had to write it. If those people are that lazy that they can't even check or respond to their e-mail, I'm not sure I'd want them writing it anyway.
 
I think I will wait. The Semester isn't over yet.

ym · Nov 2, 2010

This is exactly the problem. There's no way for you to communicate that it wasn't truly a team effort without being a tattle tale - which is juvenile and no one wants to do that. You're put in a situation where saying nothing is the best option - so you learn that you hate group projects (or THIS group) and the other members of the group learned they didn't have to do anything for their grade. <img alt="" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/sad5.gif" title=""><img alt="" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/rolleyes.gif" title=""> 

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by coachie <a href="/forum/thread/70931/can-i-rant-here#post_1959254"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> I'm still weighing over whether to tell the professor, or not.
 
On one hand, yes I did all the work.
 
On the other hand, I don't want to be a "tattle" and someone had to write it. If those people are that lazy that they can't even check or respond to their e-mail, I'm not sure I'd want them writing it anyway.
 
I think I will wait. The Semester isn't over yet.
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rlemert · Nov 2, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by ym <a href="/forum/thread/70931/can-i-rant-here#post_1959249"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a> 
rlemert - encouraging teamwork is a whole lot different than assigning group projects. The problem with assigning group projects is that you have a group of peers, none of whom are in a specific leadership role and you expect them all to sort it out and do the project. It doesn't work well in the academic environment because there really isn't anyone wholly responsible for managing the project - they all are. If you want students to learn how to work as a team like they would in the real world, create teams at the beginning of the semester and have enough assignments so that each team member has an opportunity to be the manager on at least one project. The students also need to know that their progress and contributions will be measured and that they will earn THEIR grade, not the group grade.
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Good stuff here.
 
When I left academia, some professors were experimenting with ways to have the students within each group allocate credit for that group. One approach, for example, had the students rate the contributions from everyone ELSE in the team. Thus, A might say that B and C each contributed about the same effort, while D was only half as productive as the others. Another approach was to have the students submit a consensus evaluation of each member's contribution.
 
I never saw how these experiments worked out, but they do show that at least some professors are aware of the problem and trying to find a solution.

airehead · Nov 2, 2010

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by ym <a href="/forum/thread/70931/can-i-rant-here#post_1959249"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> The students in Coachie's group don't really deserve a grade, but they'll get one, the one Coachie earned. It sucks, because these same people graduate, go to work, and pull the same crap until they get a bad review. They're shocked when it happens, and by then, their coworkers are pissed and demotivated. What's really missing from academic group projects is management and accountability.
 
 
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Hey ym!
 
One thing I've noticed is often these people go to the real world where they don't get bad reviews and get passed on from boss to boss--until someone has the b*lls to do something. Mr Aire wrote an honest review of a subordinate. (meaning promotion would not be in his future) Mr Aire's boss asked him if he had meant what he had said in this guy's performance review.
 
One piece of advice coachie: stand up and be an a** now. You're not there to be their friends, but you can always mentor. Tell them politely that their contributions are and would be unacceptable in the real world. Also remind them that if in the future you do work with them on another project they better pull their weight. Who knows, they may actually not know about work "ethnic". (as a boss of mine used to call it.)

Can I rant here?

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