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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
<p>There were a few discussion on this topic in the past but I admit I haven't paid much attention because I wasn't doing any.  Never done them.  With lots of off-road climbing in my near future (5wks minus 3 days to be exact), I decided to some on the road because there are no long off-road climb around here.  I know it is different but leave the technical part (finding a right line, going over roots/rocks dead body whatever) aside.  Question is;</p>
<p>-  I have two hills nearby.  One is steep, takes only 1 min.  The other one is less steep takes 1min 45sec.  Both pretty taxing to me.  What is a proper amount of rest?  For the first hill (1min one), I can go down on the other side recovering but climbing that back up is very gentle hill.  So should I just turn around at the top, coming down as recover, and turn around/hit it again OR ride a flat part for a while and turn around?  I can even do like 30sec or 1min pick up or something at the flat part before turning around and going up again.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Since I am going to face a long steady hill during this race, I would love to simulate something similar but we just don't have one around here. </p>
 

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<p>for the long steady climb you can use your trainer, it's also better because you can control the rest interval.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>For the off road, either of the two hills is good, try to find a technical downhill if possible and work on your skills while you recover.  If your fork has a lockout get used to locking it before you climb and unlock on the downhill or just leave it locked for non technical courses</p>
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
<p>So on a trainer, just keep pushing heavy gear for how long, how heavy (like barely keeping 70rpm?)</p>
<p> </p>
<p>So, you lock/unlock the front shock as you ride <img alt="" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/shock.gif" style="width:15px;height:15px;" title="">?  Nope I can't do that. </p>
<p>My MTB (ok, technically my son's) is so heavy that my husband thinks we should rent one in Utah.  Maybe I get a high-end fancy one that I don't know how to ride.  I personally think I should stick with $700 heavy bike I know how to ride.</p>
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Yo Sake</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/69545/bike-hill-repeats#post_1934915"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p> </p>
<p>So, you lock/unlock the front shock as you ride <img alt="" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/shock.gif" style="width:15px;height:15px;" title="">?  Nope I can't do that. </p>
<p>My MTB (ok, technically my son's) is so heavy that my husband thinks we should rent one in Utah.  Maybe I get a high-end fancy one that I don't know how to ride.  I personally think I should stick with $700 heavy bike I know how to ride.</p>
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<p><br><br>
Geez Louise, no.  You get to the top of the hill, STOP, unlock the shocks, ride down, STOP, lock the shocks out, and repeat.  Anyway, that's only relevant if your shocks can be locked out, which is almost certainly not the case if you are on an old heavy bike.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I would bring your bike to Utah, but be open to the idea of renting one out there.  Utah is Mountain Biking Mecca and it's quite likely you could rent a dream bike out there.  Yeah, every bike has a slightly different feel to it, but I think you'd be amazed how big a difference there is between a mid-range bike and a top-end one - you won't want to go back!</p>
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
<p>Matt - It is a brand-new bike (totally high-end for my 10yr old son), Gary Fisher Marlin and it has the lockout.  The singletracks here are so many short up/downs (so I guess no reason to stop/adjust/stop/adjust), while this course is supposedly 10miles straight up, 1.5mile downhill, then another up or something like that.  So it makes sense to stop and adjust the shock.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>As for renting, DH wouldn't know that once you ride a nice one 'you won't want to go back'. <img alt="" src="http://files.kickrunners.com/smilies/biggrin.gif" style="width:16px;height:16px;" title=""></p>
 

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<p>Just reach down and flip the lever, it won't bite you.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>If your intent is to replicate long climbs, the just do longer intervals under load on the trainer or ride into the wind on the road for a set period of time.  I don't think low RPS need to be part of it.</p>
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<p>For the shorter hills, ride up them hard or just do a hilly ride for a couple hours and really drill the uphills.</p>
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<p>MTB's are pretty heavy, the tires add a lot of weight and the suspension forks can go over 5 pounds.  I use a single speed with a rigid steel fork sometimes, but it bangs me around more than I like, so perhaps a single speed with something like a Rock Shox Reba would be a decent compromise.  If you usually just ride small hills, a single speeder might be a cheap way to get a light fast bike.</p>
 

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<p>I agree with all Jr said.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Only things I can add are:</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Although it is nice to have a longer climb akin to what you might see out in Utah, the truth of the matter is that you can train for monster long climbs on a short hill. You want to build strength in your legs by tackling the small hill until you can charge it in your repeats, so in essence you are all out. But work up to that first. Charging the hill on repeats will not only build strength but will also build speed. On top of that it teaches you how to feel out a hill -- any hill -- in order to get up it as fast as you can.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>When you get to the race, where now before you is a huge several mile long climb, treat it like you would a marathon. You want to pace the hill. Settle into a work-rate -- at whatever speed; speed is irrelevant -- so that you can breath. The fitter you are the deeper you can let your breathing go.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I trained for and completed Mount Washington by training on shorter hills. And I was fine. Because I knew how to climb that kind of monster within my abilities. And that's what you must do.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>After you master hill repeats where you charge each and everyone of them, you can then add in some flavor. I would first master charging because that's where all the benefit comes from. The flavor you could add would be to break the hill into thirds. Go up at a good work rate the first two thirds of the hill, and then hammer all out the final third. Once you get good you can do half and half. And then one third and two thirds. That is a great workout.</p>
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<p>Go up, hit the top, coast for a few seconds so that you don't fall when you turn, then turn, go back down, and do it all over again.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Good luck. I love hills. I didn't always. But especially on the run, I love them. And on the bike you can get there too.</p>
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
<p>Thanks all!</p>
<p> </p>
<p>JR - In order to replicate a long hill, (1) should I use MTB on a trainer?  Do I raise the front?  If I don't raise the front, is it pretty much the same as other intervals or temp as far as the effforts goes?</p>
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<p>Thor - I like your 'breaking the hills into thirds' idea.  I was doing a short hill repeats on feet today and thought about this.  It gives you more 'manageable' sense to charge it up all the way.  I will certainly use this on bike hill repeats too.      </p>
 

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<p>you can just use your road bike on the trainer or try to get out for a 2-3 hour mtb on a hilly trail and just enjoy being outside in the last weeks of summer.  I know what I'd do...</p>
 

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<p> </p>
<div class="quote-container">
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Yo Sake</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/69545/bike-hill-repeats#post_1935654"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a>
<p> </p>
<p>Thor - I like your 'breaking the hills into thirds' idea.  I was doing a short hill repeats on feet today and thought about this.  It gives you more 'manageable' sense to charge it up all the way.  I will certainly use this on bike hill repeats too.      </p>
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<p><br>
Definitely! In fact, it's a great way for beginners to hill repeats or even those more seasoned but looking for big gains now. Breaking the hill into thirds, or even halves, allows you to go easy as you tackle the first part of the hill and then pick up to near all out on the latter. You are so focused on the final part that you "forget" that you actually climbed the earlier part -- and since climbing of any sort is indeed difficult and met with a higher than normal workrate, you are in effect pushing the entire hill. Or after mastering this, you will quickly start pushing the entire hill. Immense strength can be built that way.<br>
 </p>
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jroden</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/69545/bike-hill-repeats#post_1935683"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>you can just use your road bike on the trainer or try to get out for a 2-3 hour mtb on a hilly trail and just enjoy being outside in the last weeks of summer.  I know what I'd do...</p>
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<p><br>
Just to throw more support behind what Jr says here... Yoshi, don't worry too much about doing the hills so much on your MTB. Road bike, be it on Trainer or on roads, is fine. As long as you bridge that fitness with consistant MTB rides.... it's all good. Keep it fun.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>When I do hills, I often fall into the habit of doing the same hill over and over again on all my workouts. But I like that. Knowing this, I often do the hill differently each week. Or find a way to make the workout different so that you keep looking forward to those suffer fests. Otherise they can be draining.<br>
 </p>
 

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<p><br>
 </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Thor</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/69545/bike-hill-repeats#post_1935756"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><br><br><p><br>
Just to throw more support behind what Jr says here... Yoshi, don't worry too much about doing the hills so much on your MTB. Road bike, be it on Trainer or on roads, is fine. As long as you bridge that fitness with consistant MTB rides.... it's all good. Keep it fun.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>When I do hills, I often fall into the habit of doing the same hill over and over again on all my workouts. But I like that. Knowing this, I often do the hill differently each week. Or find a way to make the workout different so that you keep looking forward to those suffer fests. Otherise they can be draining.<br>
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<p><br>
I do the same, our climbs are around 10 mins or less, so I can build workouts using different hills.  I did a 10 minute climb yesterday doing 20 secs on 10 secs off intervals all the way up.  It was pretty hard.   There's a decent climb up a snowmobile trail with a steep technical downhill back to the bottom, so sometimes I do reps hard up then use the fast DH to build some upper body strength and bike handling skills.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>A big part of going fast on the MTB is letting it dance around under you going down the hill and staying loose.</p>
 

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<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jroden</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/69545/bike-hill-repeats#post_1935794"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><p> </p>
<p>A big part of going fast on the MTB is letting it dance around under you going down the hill and staying loose.</p>
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<p><br><br>
Indeed.  I usually think of it as letting the bike do whatever it wants within certain boundaries.  You can't possibly control every movement on downhill singletrack, so as long as the bike is on the trail and pointed in the right direction, let it bounce around.  The faster I go, the looser my grip is on the handlebars.</p>
 

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<p><br>
 </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>MBannon</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/69545/bike-hill-repeats#post_1935833"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a><br><br><br><br><p><br><br>
Indeed.  I usually think of it as letting the bike do whatever it wants within certain boundaries.  You can't possibly control every movement on downhill singletrack, so as long as the bike is on the trail and pointed in the right direction, let it bounce around.  The faster I go, the looser my grip is on the handlebars.</p>
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<p> </p>
<p>I tried a rigid fork for that reason, forgetting that I started on a rigid fork in the late 1980's.  i had hoped that it would provide more feedback and allow me to take a better line, but the bike hopped around so bad I couldn't even focus my eyes, so I bolted the 5 pound suspension fork back on.  I ride with some guys that run single speed rigid bikes and they go really fast, often beating me in technical races.<br>
 </p>
 

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Discussion Starter · #15 ·
<br><br><div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jroden</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/69545/bike-hill-repeats#post_1935683"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>you can just use your road bike on the trainer or try to get out for a 2-3 hour mtb on a hilly trail and just enjoy being outside in the last weeks of summer.  I know what I'd do...</p>
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<p><br>
Just thinking about the same thing.  No way I hop on a trainer in the dark basement. <br><br><br>
 </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>Thor</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/69545/bike-hill-repeats#post_1935756"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><p>Just to throw more support behind what Jr says here... Yoshi, don't worry too much about doing the hills so much on your MTB. Road bike, be it on Trainer or on roads, is fine. As long as you bridge that fitness with consistant MTB rides.... it's all good. Keep it fun.</p>
<p> </p>
<p> </p>
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<p><br>
So true.  Just like no way not to enjoy the outside, I am just having a ball riding different places, often pretty hard (no more boring 3-hr ride on a road), often with my riding partner (= DH).<br><br><br>
 </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jroden</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/69545/bike-hill-repeats#post_1935794"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>A big part of going fast on the MTB is letting it dance around under you going down the hill and staying loose.</p>
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<p><br>
I know I brake way too much, lose momentum and have to work hard go uphills.  Once in a while, I manage to enjoy letting the tail go to ride well downhill corners. <br><br>
 </p>
<p><span>Quote:</span></p>
<div class="quote-container">
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>MBannon</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/69545/bike-hill-repeats#post_1935833"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-bottom:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-right:0px solid;"></a>
<p><br><br>
Indeed.  I usually think of it as letting the bike do whatever it wants within certain boundaries.  You can't possibly control every movement on downhill singletrack, so as long as the bike is on the trail and pointed in the right direction, let it bounce around.  The faster I go, the looser my grip is on the handlebars.</p>
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<p>Of course the scarest part and the reason why I brake too much is that the bike doesn't point in hte right direction in relation to the trees!  From what I gathered, the Natl course is not very technical (ok, i don't know exactly what mean by this, but I am using as in full of switchbacks, twisty turns, such).  The downhill part is supposedly only one section of 1.5mile, so I am sure I am busy catching my breath and gathering myself.  It is all about climb, baby.<br><br>
 </p>
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
<p>I found a 8% hill, relatively short, which takes me around 3min.  I seated all the way on the first attempt, it took me 3min 10sec.  Even the lightest gear combo allowed me to go at only upper 40rpm.  Very heavy to push.  So against my understanding of conventional wisdom of 'it is better to stay seated', I decided to got off the saddle second time at about half way up where the road tilts up a bit more (and kept that way totall 5 repeats).  Much easier and faster too (2min 45-50sec).  I could maintain a nice rythm too.  And it didn't seem to tax me more than seated climbing did.  And I think the cadence was mid-upper 50rpm.  So in this kind of steep (to me) hill, better to get off the saddle?  Or should stay seated?  My objective is to become a better climber especially at a longer, steady hill (hopefully less steep...on the Xterra course). </p>
 

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<p>The reason you stay seated is to keep from frying your legs. You're an AMAZING runner so you have some serious strength there... the question is can you balance burning up your legs vs the speed gain going up standing? It's just a trade off.For ME I stay seated as my strength is NOT running. But for you... you can probably get away with it far more than I.</p>
 

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<p>If you are turing 40 rpm's then maybe you need a lighter gear.  Once you hit that point on the MTB you either have to get out of the saddle if traction will allow it of hop off and run it.  Many times on the MTB you are restricted to in the saddle climbing because the wheel breaks loose or the bike starts to wheelie and you need to keep some weight on the front end.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Keep the back tire pressure kind of low so you can keep traction on the broken ground and look for places on the climb that seem to offer traction and keep you out of deep ruts.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I have run many hills in mountain bike races and it is often faster, but you take a little time clipping back in.  It might be tougher for you because your bike is a much higher proportion of your body weight.</p>
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
<p><br><br>
 </p>
<div class="quote-container"><span>Quote:</span>
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by <strong>jroden</strong> <a href="/forum/thread/69545/bike-hill-repeats#post_1936721"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border-right:0px solid;border-top:0px solid;border-left:0px solid;border-bottom:0px solid;"></a><br><br><p>If you are turing 40 rpm's then maybe you need a lighter gear.  Once you hit that point on the MTB you either have to get out of the saddle if traction will allow it of hop off and run it.  Many times on the MTB you are restricted to in the saddle climbing because the wheel breaks loose or the bike starts to wheelie and you need to keep some weight on the front end.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Keep the back tire pressure kind of low so you can keep traction on the broken ground and look for places on the climb that seem to offer traction and keep you out of deep ruts.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>I have run many hills in mountain bike races and it is often faster, but you take a little time clipping back in.  It might be tougher for you because your bike is a much higher proportion of your body weight.</p>
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<p><br>
Woops, I wasn't clear.  This hill I was riding was on my tri bike on the road.  I see what you are saying on the MTB.  I can't imagine getting off the saddle of the MTB much at all.  I have to really focus on keeping my weight on the front when I climb especially sandy hill, otherwise the front wheel just slips no grabbing.</p>
<p> </p>
<p>Based on the course description of the trail which is the main part of the Nationals course, it is supposed to be 'moderate - aerbobically' and 'easy to moderate - technically'.  So I am hoping it is just a mild climbing, just long and steady. <br>
 </p>
 

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<p>i see.  I don't think there is an additional training benefit to riding 40 rpm's up a hill, you need to stand up and engage your upper body more and allow your body weight to fall on the pedals. </p>
<p> </p>
<p>I don't understand triathletes fear of standing on climbs or riding up hills hard. Just get up the thing and recover on the way down.</p>
 
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