5 weeks break from running - didn't know how quickly you could de-train yourself....

Yo Sake · Oct 20, 2011

With a few mountain bike accidents, I couldn't run for almost 5 weeks. For the first half of that, I couldn't do much to elevate my HR while the second half I did some exercise bike then swimming but not much. After 5 days of running, today I did some speed work, wearing HRM. Holly smoke, I saw some #'s I don't remember seeing before. My HR went up above 180 just doing a hard 400m. I think it barely made to 170 before the injuries. Even at a supposedly-comfotable 9min/m pace, I couldn't keep my HR below 150. Interesting thing is, however, it didn't feel that hard, just HR saying high. Another good indication of not being in a shape is how quickly your HR comes down or doesn't come down afte a hard effort. 200m jog wasn' enough to bring the HR low enough after a hard 200m... 
 
I was quite surprised how quickly you could de-train yourself. Since the injuries weren't caused by running, I am ramping up my miles quite quickly - the last five day I ran 5, 7, 9, 0, 7+4. Would this be a mistake? Did my running related muscles/tendon and all that get weaker (I did lots of squats, hip exercises, etc, though) and do I need to rebuild them slowly? (please say no.

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What are your experiences with rebuilding your fitness? What particular system should I focus as the quickest way to get back to where I was, i.e. threshold, VO2, aerobic endurance? What is a general rule of thumb about how long it takes to get back to where you were in comparison to how long you were out, 1:1, 2:1? 
 
Thanks for your input,

Thor · Oct 20, 2011

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Originally Posted by Yo Sake <a href="/t/75477/5-weeks-break-from-running-didnt-know-how-quickly-you-could-de-train-yourself#post_2017116"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a>
 
I was quite surprised how quickly you could de-train yourself. Since the injuries weren't caused by running, I am ramping up my miles quite quickly - the last five day I ran 5, 7, 9, 0, 7+4. Would this be a mistake? Did my running related muscles/tendon and all that get weaker (I did lots of squats, hip exercises, etc, though) and do I need to rebuild them slowly? (please say no.

) 
 
What are your experiences with rebuilding your fitness? What particular system should I focus as the quickest way to get back to where I was, i.e. threshold, VO2, aerobic endurance? What is a general rule of thumb about how long it takes to get back to where you were in comparison to how long you were out, 1:1, 2:1? 
 
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Disclaimer: I feel like I've said this (below) many, many times before, particularly with you.
 
Instead of taking you as an example, I will take me. If I could not run for 5 weeks, it would do me good, as it would you, since we both tend to hit it very hard for long periods of time, jumping from one goal or race to another. I would not loose much fitness if any. That said, it would take me a week or maybe two to get back to feeling smooth and get pace back in the legs. And after that time, I would be running the same pace I was before the layoff. And the same it goes for you.
 
Don't get overly anal here. Take these two weeks to jump back in. By the end of next week, you will be running far stronger than you feel right now. Trust me. 5 weeks off for someone like you is nothing. In fact, it is in a round-about way... good for you, as long as you don't have another layoff equally as long back to back. And I say this even if you were not able to mtn bike.
 
In your favor to an even speedier return to running at pace is the fact that you were sidelined, to your own admission, by non-running injuries. So it's not like you have to baby or pamper a tender calf or hammy. That is huge in a faster return.
 
Take a step back from the micro environment to see the bigger picture. 5 weeks? It's nothing. First time back running... of course you're not going to feel spunky and fast, and of course your times will be off and heart rate high. End of next week... and I bet even middle of next week or sooner, you will be back.

Muffin Queen · Oct 20, 2011

I can only speak to my own experience but I will say I am running better now than I ever have before and my injury did impact my run although it was not caused by running. 
 
A quick timeline:
August 2010 broke arm and pelvis in a bike crash
October 2010 started back into running (pool then roads using run/walk method) (about 8 weeks after accident)
November 2010 ran 5k turkey trot at a respectable pace for me even pre accident
May 2011 half marathon 7 minute PR for me at Big Lake
 
I did not believe it no matter how many times I had been told that fitness stays with you a lot longer than you may think. Coming into the crash I had done IMCDA in June 2009 and had a great 2009 season. I had also run Boston in April 2010. I also kept up training during off season. So I had some good fitness there. The trick for me was listening to my body as it responded when I started back. Since the pelvis thing directly impacted my run I did have to start more slowly than you will since you did not have a direct running issue. I did not use HR since my HR runs VERY high all the time when I run, like 200 bpm for a high. I mainly went by feel and listened to what my body was telling me. I also added back strength work and have kept up with that pretty faithfully and was also faithful to my rehab. So I was sidelined for about 8 weeks and I was back at it and getting stronger at about 4 weeks after starting running again. Given that my injury did directly impact my run I think that is pretty good. Because your did not come from running I would say that you would be in a much shorter time loop.
 
Course now that I've typed all this it probably isn't as relevent but if it helped at all I'm happy.

Alaska Mike · Oct 20, 2011

I tend to agree with what Thor and MQ wrote. You may find that your body takes a week or two to re-adjust, but I don't think you've lost that much of your base fitness. Keep at it, listen to your body, give yourself adequate time to ramp back up and I think you'll find you're back at a high level in a relatively short period of time.
 
Mike

Yo Sake · Oct 20, 2011

Thank you for your input and comforting words. I do think this forced rest was good in a big scheme of things. 
Kind of a separate subject. I took a "good form running" class a few weeks ago. Nothing drastically new but the key points were presented and substatiated by what makes good sense. Anyway, I have been practicing forward leaning, tall, landing under me, mid-foot- strike running. Leaning forward (as if you are falling) is the biggest adjustment I am doing. The problem is, I automatically run fast with this style and I don't know how to run slow without bring back my old running form. The instructor explained to not lean as much and push off with less force but I don't get it. Any advice? I can tell my foot landing is different now - my middle toe is sore and I'm getting blisters at mid-foot arch.

Thor · Oct 20, 2011

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<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Yo Sake <a href="/t/75477/5-weeks-break-from-running-didnt-know-how-quickly-you-could-de-train-yourself#post_2017233"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> 
Thank you for your input and comforting words. I do think this forced rest was good in a big scheme of things. 
Kind of a separate subject. I took a "good form running" class a few weeks ago. Nothing drastically new but the key points were presented and substatiated by what makes good sense. Anyway, I have been practicing forward leaning, tall, landing under me, mid-foot- strike running. Leaning forward (as if you are falling) is the biggest adjustment I am doing. The problem is, I automatically run fast with this style and I don't know how to run slow without bring back my old running form. The instructor explained to not lean as much and push off with less force but I don't get it. Any advice? I can tell my foot landing is different now - my middle toe is sore and I'm getting blisters at mid-foot arch.</div>
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 You want to be "leaning forward," but be careful about leaning overly forward. Your natural stride and lean is probably fine. But don't over extend the lean forward. It'll just put pressure somewhere else. Running form is important, but it is, for most people, entirely over-rated for a few reasons: one is most people have a pretty good natural running form; two is that the fitter you get and the harder you push, the more your body will seek out that more efficient position. Running form, while important, is very much getting its day in the sun right now, much like a fad, something to point at to say, "That's why I am slow" or "That's why I can hit my PR" or... I haven't seen you run, but if I did, I bet you are pretty efficient. Sure, there might be some micro changes that you could do, but honestly, most of those changes never stick, and eve if they did stick they wouldn't necessarily make you a better runner per se. There is so much to it. Someone like RonBo, he needed form correction because of how he learned to run, which was in a way that saw his glutes never getting contracted, if you can believe that.
 
If you want to work on form, do some drills down at the track. Those drills won't necessarily correct form as much as they will strengthen some of those ancillary muscles. And that's probably more in line with what you want. Kind of like if you want to stretch a muscle out, you can always get it better when you assist gravity or have a friend gently push you down to position, if you will.
 
The other thing about form is that although there is such thing as an ideal form, some people can never, ever get there due to how their bodies are constructed, and if they try to get there they will likely get injured over and over, especially if they try ramping/retaining mileage while doing so. Like any change, you got go gradually, but I bet your form is good. Layer up some drills down by the track. Mike and Scott have posted a few over the years, or Google about for running drills, but don't go crazy on them. You won't see the gains that you might think.

Yo Sake · Oct 20, 2011

Thx, Thor. You reminded me of sticking with the drills, I got to get back into it. There was an article about an elite runner trying to change the form because she was constantly getting injured, but that she was still getting different injuries from trying to change her natural running form. Ironic. Another interesting thing was they showed Kara Goucher's running form around the time she got passed by an African runner in Boston. Big time heel striking, landing way ahead of her. She is still the top class runner. 
I will make smaller changes. After all I have been injury-free.

Thor · Oct 21, 2011

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<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Yo Sake <a href="/t/75477/5-weeks-break-from-running-didnt-know-how-quickly-you-could-de-train-yourself#post_2017239"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> 
After all I have been injury-free.</div>
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And for you and me and everybody here, that's really the point. Unless your form is really that bad, the truth is that if this is a hobby, you are mostly better off just keeping on or if anything making only tiny changes, mostly because you are injury-free and secondarily because at our speeds the gains are so minimal that they are mostly negligible. If, however, we were elite athletes trying to make a living, then the case is slightly different, because a second here and there can mean the difference between taking home the prize and not taking home anything. Read up on some of the good coaches, and most will tell you that as an age grouper, or call us amateurs or weekend warriors, it might not always be the best thing to focus on even though it sounds good. It's like on the bike... there really isn't such a thing as free speed. Take for example doing one-legged drills on the bike. You don't get nearly the gain you might think. You're often better off using that time working on top-end speed, because while working on top-end you will also become more efficient a rider by utilizing the full pedal stroke. That's what happens when you start pushing your limits, you find the most efficient and effective ways to accomplish that fastest possible speed.
 
Again, this is not to say don't do drills. But it is to say that you shouldn't expect noticeable improvements from them, certainly not right away and perhaps, if you really, really stick to them, maybe in a year, but that only applies if you don't injure yourself in other ways.

jroden · Oct 21, 2011

I generally default to endurance building training when recovering from injury or illness, if I'm tired or just can't figure out what to do. Just working at a comfortable pace and getting the time in for a period of a few weeks always makes sense after a layoff and if this time of year if a transition for you it makes especially good sense. Use the MTB a couple days a week to get the longer duration if you don't want to run too much yet. No sense doing speedwork for a while.
 
Take some time on the MTB to work on your skills in a safe environment so you are not all tense in the woods. We do a lot of work on turning at cross practice and have riders push the bikes until they come out from under them, but it's safe on the grass. One drill to get the feel is riding figure 8's around a pair of trees 10 feet apart, then switch directions, then just ride an oval, then switch. try to increase speed and stay tight to the tree until the tires begin to break loose, then change your body position to balance the bike better and try again. it really helps, especially when you get a new bike and need to figure out the balance point

Yo Sake · Oct 21, 2011

Thor - thanks for your input. 
Jr - the suggested practice makes me cringe right now. I have to admit that I was getting overly confident (with little substance) in the woods and getting too aggressive for my skill level when I got injured. Plus poor knowlege of different bike setups for a given course condition.... I can easily see me falling (with feet clipped in) doing the figure 8. It would hurt even on grass.

jroden · Oct 23, 2011

<div class="quote-container">Quote:
<div class="quote-block">Originally Posted by Yo Sake <a href="/t/75477/5-weeks-break-from-running-didnt-know-how-quickly-you-could-de-train-yourself#post_2017329"><img alt="View Post" class="inlineimg" src="/img/forum/go_quote.gif" style="border:0px solid;"></a> 
Thor - thanks for your input. 
Jr - the suggested practice makes me cringe right now. I have to admit that I was getting overly confident (with little substance) in the woods and getting too aggressive for my skill level when I got injured. Plus poor knowlege of different bike setups for a given course condition.... I can easily see me falling (with feet clipped in) doing the figure 8. It would hurt even on grass.</div>
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 perhaps that's why there are always a few new faces at practice every week who don't come back a second time. I was on the floor a few times last week, it'd getting pretty muddy this time of year on those little tires slide around pretty easy

5 weeks break from running - didn't know how quickly you could de-train yourself....

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