Lance??? Guilty? not Guilty? who cares? - KickRunners.com
 
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#1 of 7 Old 08-24-2012, 07:28 AM - Thead Starter
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I think he did it, that being said, I think MOST of them did it.  I also think USADA went beyond what they would do for all others and it seems like a vendetta.  At this point, they need a true smoking gun.  Also, at this point, I don't care.. Show me the same type of analysis of the 2nd, 3rd, 4th, 5th, racers and then I'll maybe feel it has been fair.  

 

Besides at that point Jens Voigt will be the Winner of most races.


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#2 of 7 Old 08-24-2012, 08:21 AM
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I can't disagree with your assessment of Lance.  However, show me the failed doping test.  Tell me who these witnesses are and what they saw.  Most importantly, provide this information to Lance and his legal team so they can have all the information that is going to be presented.  In my opinion, the USADA won the battle but lost the war.  To me, they have lost all credibility. 

 

With Lance being banned from cycling for life, does this mean he can't compete in triathlons either?

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#3 of 7 Old 08-24-2012, 09:02 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1Topodope View Post

 

With Lance being banned from cycling for life, does this mean he can't compete in triathlons either?

 

He can't compete in USAT or WTC triathlons, so no Kona or other big events.  Other series' such as Rev3, etc. have their own rules, so he could maybe compete in those if he wanted to.  But would he want to?

 

I think he cheated, and I don't mind that USADA went after him, that's their mandated job.  But I do think this whole mess has exposed a serious flaw in the system, that being the ridiculously long statute of limitations for sanctioning athletes.  I mean, come on...now we're sitting here wondering who actually won all those TdF titles and whether or not THEY were clean.  We can't exactly test them now, can we?!  Time to re-write the rules, IMO.  If you can't prove they cheated within a 1-year timeframe, then they got away with it and that's that.  Move on.


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#4 of 7 Old 08-24-2012, 09:12 AM
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I have no issues with any of this. If it eventually cleans up the sport, even if they have to trudge through history, so be it. If it means that my son or daughter comes into the world a better place, which I truly feel these organizations in the "witch hunt" are doing, then it's all good.

 

I am and always have been a fan of Lance. But just because I am a fan does not mean that I will protect him. Truth is, none of us know, and the other truth is that we have only a trace of the real data and assorted details. They aren't public for good reasons. And I have no issues with the USDA not revealing more. Because for them to do that would also smear many others. I have confidence that they know something we do not.

 

Lance likely cheated, and I'm okay with that just as I'm okay with the good folks in power of striping him his medals. If the guy doesn't fight it, it to me is an admission of guilt on a level like this. Otherwise I don't think he would be so worn down and ready to give in. If he truly were guilty and continues the fight, and then when all is said and done he sues everybody hunting witches and puts all that money back into his charity. In a perfect world.

 

So many of those guys back then were on something illegal. To say everybody was doing it doesn't make it right. So I'm good with continuing the fight, because eventually we'll be clean or at least mostly clean. There will always be cheats in every facet of life, but if we can make most honest, we win in the long run.

 

Do I think Lance is guilty? Yes, or at least likely. Do I think Lance is among the greatest cyclists ever? Yes. Do I think he should be stripped of his Tour titles if he gives up the fight? Yes. Fair is fair.

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#5 of 7 Old 08-24-2012, 11:30 AM
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I agree with AdCo on testing everyone and that it does seem like a vendetta based on their handling of the matter.

 

I think the USADA process is pitiful and denigrates the whole idea of the administrative legal process.  As Bannon said the statutue of limitations is too long and the evidence is aged and likely the chain of custody is flawed after all these years.  Why could the federal probe not find enough evidence to support a charge but the USADA could?  I find it difficult to believe that their process and procedures were followed and that is what the crime is here.  Future generations will be tested and judged within a system that is in and of itself hopelessly broken.  I too think ASADA has lost all credibility and at this stage will find it difficult to support what is in theory a good mission but in execution a joke of a process.  I don't for 1 minute think that this will clean up the sport of cycling or sports in general.  If they really wanted to clean up sports start testing and disciplining football players, basketball players or other professional athletes.  Cycling isn't the only sport with this issue. The Tygart statement that says he must be guilty by deciding not the engage in the administrative process should have gotten him fired.  That is not something that should be allowed and quite frankly not the mindset of a representative of a quasi-US Gov't agency head that I want my tax dollars supporting.  Course I don't think my tax dollars should support half of the stupid stuff congress does anyway but this is another rant for another day.

 

Tope:  I too think that the evidence should be brought to light and made available to his lawyers. In a criminal matter the prosecution must share with the defense the evidence against them in order to allow them to mount a defense.  This should be no different.   

 

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Lance likely cheated, and I'm okay with that just as I'm okay with the good folks in power of striping him his medals. If the guy doesn't fight it, it to me is an admission of guilt on a level like this. Otherwise I don't think he would be so worn down and ready to give in. If he truly were guilty and continues the fight, and then when all is said and done he sues everybody hunting witches and puts all that money back into his charity. In a perfect world.

 

 

Also, re: giving up if not guilty.  As a lawyer who has watched a whole company with the resources and money to fight allegations that I know were untrue settle a case out of court and pay the scum rather than continue to fight, I can say that giving up the fight is in no way an admission of guilt.  The cost of lawyers is ridiculous ($900/hour for a partner at a large firm in Boston plus more per hour when actually in court) and the toll the process of litigation takes cannot be discounted.  Litigation is crappy on everyone except the lawyers who rake in the money. 

 

At this point in time people are going to think whatever they are going to think regardless of his decision to fight or not and regardless of any outcome that would have been realized.  Think about it this way, the federal probe turned up nothing and was ultimately dismissed yet people drew their own conclusions anyway regarding whether or not he used banned substances. You would think that the dismissal would have settled the issue as negative for the doping allegations since they could have brought suit if they wanted to or felt they had sufficient evidence to do so.  As the federal govenrmente they have unlimited resources and time. 

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#6 of 7 Old 08-24-2012, 03:27 PM
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Why could the federal probe not find enough evidence to support a charge but the USADA could? 

 

Just to clarify one small part of this whole mess, the feds were investigating whether or not public money was used to illegally purchase controlled substances.  Apparently they could not make a strong case of that.  USADA, on the other hand, is alleging cheating.  Totally different.  Plus, the federal case would have been tried in a court of law where the standards of evidence are much higher than at the arbitration level where USADA operates.

 

So basically apples and oranges.


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#7 of 7 Old 08-24-2012, 07:45 PM
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I am not necessarily a big fan of Lance but what he accomplished was incredible.  I so wished it wouldn't have come down to this finding and resulted stripping him of the 7 titles.  I have no clue nor any interest in learning how this testing processes work and who is govening which races/whom, etc.  Can't we all just follow the rules and not cheat? 

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