Commissioner's update: Jan. 28 - Page 3 - KickRunners.com
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#51 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 02:14 PM
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ANTAG - CAP my points and you will de-motivate me

We will never have this influx of rookies again. We have historical data from this round of VRAA - Why do we not seed people based upon the last Rounds performance and then take the rookies at their word.

I believe this historical data will be a better predictor than signing up for levels. It of course has flaws as we all train at different levels throughout the year - But I would wager it would create more balanced teams.
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#52 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 02:41 PM
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but you get 400 points for running the actual race, the 5K dude gets 12 points (maybe he makes it to 25 with a decent warm up and cool down)
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#53 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 02:46 PM
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No, you get 405 points compared to the 19 points someone running a 5k would get. I think the 5 point bonus across the board makes sense, it's a perk for doing a race, regardless of the distance, otherwise it's kind of penalizing those who race shorter distances.

I do think a good idea would be to have people state whether they are running races when signing up for their BA level, if every person on one team is racing and no one on another team is racing that makes a difference, even if it's not a large one.
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#54 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 03:30 PM
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biggrin.gif you just made me think of the movie Office Space.
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#55 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 03:57 PM
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I'm also doing more than I said I would but it wasn't intentional.

my training schedule was planned to avergae 65 mpw for the VRAA, and I have never done any cross training or weights because with the exception of running, I am lazy.

VRAA got me doing more mileage, and amazingly also got me doing core/weights every night. I actually now enjot doing it, and can already feel teh positive effects. so it's definitely met it's goal in my eyes.

Next time I will sign up as a titanium, and hopefully not under deliver.

One final suggestion, that I am sure will upset a lot of people - how about only awarding points for real running, outside. After all this is KickRunners.com smile.gif
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#56 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 04:22 PM - Thead Starter
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Again, thanks for the spirited discussion and the many suggestions. It's apparent how much the VRAA means to you all, and that makes me feel good.

I just wanted to bump this response and to say that not much will change in the next VRAA. The VRAA works because of it's simplicity and access to all. Everyone, no matter your ability (output) level, can and does play on the same field.

Let me reiterate one more time about the "Spirit of the game." The spirit of the VRAA is that the game an honor system to report your daily workouts. It is not meant for us to obsess and count each and every step we take as we go about our days. The essence is that it motivates to do that extra few minutes, or that extra mile, within the frame of your workouts.

At the end of each day, we all must be the arbiters of our own workouts and the points we claim. The game relies on your honesty.

Of course, there are exceptions to all rules. I think the scoring rules cover just enough, but not too much. I do not intend to make this game more complicated!
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#57 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 04:42 PM
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And it has been a tremendous success at that. I signed up as BAIT and that's where I was performing when I signed up. Then my team captain challenged us all to get 4 points per day every day and I started to add some core, pilates, walking, and rock climbing in order to meet that goal. That was fun and got easier, so I continued. The net result is that I get 6 or 7 workouts a week, minimum, I'm in better shape than I was 4 weeks ago, and I'm scoring at the low end of BA. So, it was unintentional sandbagging, but you got me off my butt and exercising 6 days a week, so many thanks for the motivation! banana.gif

Roots - thanks for all the work. This has been a blast and I'm glad I got to participate. I'll be back for the next one!
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#58 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 04:58 PM
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I've only read the first page of points so someone may have already made this suggestion. I think we need to drop or at least rethink the method of assigning players to teams. A Bad Ass runs between 15 and 30 miles per week. That's a range of of 60 to 120 points per week. So if everyone performs as they predicted, the team that gets lucky enough to get those who perform at the top of their category will be the winning team.

If the goal is to encourage everyone to work out and to maybe workout at a slightly higher level than they have in the past, maybe we should assign teams based on the performance in a past VRAA. For those who have not partcipated, maybe a past month's running or activity log could be used to estimate their points potential.

Roots - thanks for putting this together. This was my first participation and it gave me a little extra incentive to do a little more and not skip workouts.
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#59 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 09:38 PM
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I say we round up all the sandbaggers and place large stones on them 'til they confess.
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#60 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 11:03 PM
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You don't live in the Northeast do you? I love winter running, but when there's a foot of snow, or worse: ICE, on the road, a treadmill is a far SAFER option sometimes.

Just sayin ....
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#61 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 11:19 PM
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Roots,

Thank you very much for running a great VRAA. Even with some of the kinks, it has been a great success. It's kept me running in spite of school & paper deadlines, and has seen me through my highest mileage month ever. It has been a huge motivator. I look forward to the next one.

I agree with Jensparks. Also, while I may have some bias here, it takes a lot of effort to put in 14 miles on a treadmill. smile.gif Sure, I would prefer to run those 14 miles outside, but blowing snow, 50mph gusts, and negative wind-chills are not things I can tolerate for that long - especially in the dark. (Maybe I'm a wuss, but a close call with a Jeep on snowy roads can do that to a person.biggrin.gif)
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#62 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 11:51 PM
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Well, I'll admit that I didn't understand the scoring rating when I signed up for this round. I averaged about 30 miles per week last year but I didn't consider the cross training and strength workouts that I added towards the end of last year. When I do my running log and alternate workouts on RunningAhead (and formerly on CoolRunning), the totals are not put together. Miles running are not equal to miles rowing. With the point system in VRAA, it creates a method to equate different activities that creates a larger total. That means my 30 miles running and 1 hour cardio and 30 minutes of strength training is more than what I estimated at the beginning. Rookie mistake!
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#63 of 73 Old 01-30-2008, 11:52 PM
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OK - so admittedly there are weather conditions that make it pretty difficult to run outside, and often treadmill is a safer/easier/more pleasant alternative.

so i'll admit that treadmill miles should get some points, but maybe only 2 points per mile, and it needs to set on at least 5% incline - and if there is a TV you get no points! smile.gif
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#64 of 73 Old 01-31-2008, 03:55 AM
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SWEET!!!!

We really need to do it then!!!

"Listen, kiddo. I'm trying to be patient. Try to keep up, alright sweet potato?"
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#65 of 73 Old 01-31-2008, 09:03 AM
 
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hi there...for some people, including me, it is much harder to run on a DM. My HR is always more elevated on the DM. I am able to keep a faster pace on the road.
Add the mental toughness factor that deserves some credit too. Not sure how many had a chance to "enjoy" a few 22 milers on the DM. uh...let me think of the best way to describe it...roll_eyes.gif... it fkn sucks. sorry. So, I consider it a mega effort.
Safety factor as a woman. I start my runs at 3:30am. How is that for being by myself out there in the middle of the night.
The dynamics is the same. It is running the same way. So, why to diminish it? To filter points? Doesn't make sense to me.
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#66 of 73 Old 01-31-2008, 09:57 AM
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Miscellaneous thoughts....

Thanks Roots for all of your efforts.

TM running - I had back spasms in September where I could not open a window, dropped a child, and would end up on the floor of my kitchen or bedroom when I had to reach low for something. I am much slower on the TM, but it is easier on my back. Also there is the NE weather\daylight issue.

Someone else made the point about the ranges for different categories, and I think there is some validity there. The SBA category is for runners that avg 30-50mpw. I am on the low rang of that, but that is what I signed up for. Not sure what the solution is.

Capping points gets dicey, as does penelizing for not meeting minimums. We will soon need accountants if we add layer upon layer of exceptions.

I love the idea of random teams. As much as I love the 30's, it has been a blast meeting some new people this time around. I do not venture out of the 30's much.

One last though - at CR, we had a different kind of competition between the 30's and the 20's groups. Every week, each runner had to tell their captain what they planned to run that week. The following week, the runner had to report how they did in terms of that weekly goal. The team that came closest to hitting their goal wins. And it is done on a percentage basis, so a person that has a goal of 10 miles for the week, and actually runs 10 (100% of goal) is better in this competition that someone that plans for 50 and runs 45 (90%). Might be something to consider in the future. I think we also had something in there where you could go over your goal by a certain amount, and it would not penelize (maybe 10% or something). Beaker was the captain, and she would have the scoring details.
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#67 of 73 Old 01-31-2008, 12:36 PM
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I forgot to add:

Shoutout to Moon - some of the best sports reporting ever! A real pleasure to read.

And Thanks for the beer on day 17 in NM!
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#68 of 73 Old 01-31-2008, 12:49 PM
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Ok so that's 2 pts per mile on the TM. The tv was on but I wasn't really watching it but maybe I should deducted points for it anyway-oh but I did watch the cat give herself a bath so I'll definately deduct extra points there. Don't forget the penalty points for my ipod and the water I had around mile 6-**** I think I think I'm in negative numbers now....

Next time I'll make sure I'm running on concrete (no trails-they are easier on the legs) up a hill in the dark with no water or fuel regardless how long the run-oh and I'll ditch the sports bra to make it even harder.

Sorry for the sarcasm I'm tired of people online and IRL putting down other peoples styles and running accomplishments just b/c they don't match up to theirssad.gif
Roots is right the system is fine. Listen to the master he knows what he is doing.
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#69 of 73 Old 01-31-2008, 03:34 PM
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I agree. (It's like the whole jogger/runner nonsense.) The whole tm thing made me a little mad and I wasn't going to respond to the second comment because I didn't want it devolving into a fight - particularly since I think OP didn't mean to be offensive - but I AM really glad that you and IEH4M said something. Running IS running- tm or not. Just try telling Christine Clark* that TM running isn't "real running." roll_eyes.gif (Also, Daniels in DRF even suggests that TM running is great for intervals)

Also IEH4M -- 3:30 AM!! and 22 milers on TM!! - you are amazing! notworthy.gif

* For those who don't know ... (though I can't imagine who wouldn't know this on a forum like this) C.Clark was winner of the 2000 Oly.M.Trials after training almost exclusively on the TM through winter in Alaska.
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#70 of 73 Old 01-31-2008, 10:11 PM
 
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"e" - between baby-sitting issues, working schedule, family life and injuries, starting early and the DM fall into the "you-gotta-do-what-you-gotta-do" points category wink.gif
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#71 of 73 Old 01-31-2008, 11:38 PM
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Oooops, looks like I touched a nerve there..... There is a reason I put the smiley faces in the original posts. None of this is actually intended to be serious. And if I lived where it was cold, you can bet that I would have a treadmill and would use it all the time.
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#72 of 73 Old 02-01-2008, 01:22 PM
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1!

I like the ideas around this. The idea is not to penalize someone for going above and beyond what they usually do (in fact IMHO, that is one of the GOALS of VRAA) but to limit the impact of that on the fairness factor. I like a % limit, or maybe a sliding scale to make it easier on the BAIT who is better/stronger than they thought and harder on the more experienced folks who should have a better idea of their current abilities. I know a year ago, even planning on 100 miles a month seemed like a faraway goal, but I went from 60's at the beginning of the year to over 140 a month by the end of the year. Anyway, the higher level folks should have a better handle on their abilities and thus have less leeway to exceed their self-described limit. And imposing this penalty on a per week or per game basis would allow for reduced running to heal or get well (or vacation) followed by extra effort to make up for it.

Well, on long rides, I average around 16 mph or 24 points per hour.
On long runs, I am usually about 6 mph or 24 points per hour.
Swimming, I usually do about 2000 yards in a 1 hour workout for 20 points.

For me, this seems to be about fair.

I used my training plan to see how many points I had scheduled (including a recovery week) and averaged my 4 week totals to choose my level. I am right at the top of the category I choose (my training plan had me at the high-end or low end of the next level and I am usually at about 85-90% of my plan due to life getting in the way).


While that would be fun, I like the fact that I got to know some new names and even met one of them at a race.

Smart man. I don't care what anyone says about you. biggrin.gif
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#73 of 73 Old 02-02-2008, 11:46 PM
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......
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