Slow runner,opinion wanted.

Hey  - good question, because I too wonder if I could run 'faster'. But I'm curious - what is YOUR definition of "Slow" verses, "Not Slow"?

I mean, a 2:20 Marathon is too slow for the olympics, but pretty sure it's fast compared to like 99% of all marathoners!

Also - what distance? 100 Meters? 5K? Marathon?

Welcome to the site - I hope you jump right in and keep posting!

Best,

Rich

Slow Guy:

I recall about 7 years ago, I had a goal of running a sub 7min 5k - I was, at the time, an 8 minute runner for 10ks and about 8:15 - 8:20s for 1/2 marathons. I was 45 at the time. So, I spent all summer training for just the 5k. I read and read and trained specifically for that goal - I remember towards the end doing 1 mile warm ups and then 1/4 mile sprints with about a 90sec rest then repeating four times - with a 1 mile cool down - I'd hit the track and alternate around - sprinting, the jogging; sprinting and jogging. The last 5k of the season (November) - I ran a 6:59 5k - the weather was perfect; no humidity; no heat - the course was out and back and flat - and I killed to do it - but I did it.

My point - I guess, is that if your goal is to increase your speed, then pick the race you want to do that in and focus on only that - don't mix it up with longer 1/2s etc as those are different muscles and a different running technique - I loved the longer distance runs (hour or more) but in order to hit my goal, I had to forsake that and focus on just the 5k.

Have you had your form analyzed? 

My first thought is that maybe your doing something weird and just don't realize it.  Do you have a super short stride, but quick turnover? 

And yes, some people just have natural ability. 

I could do the exact same workouts, diet, etc. as Kara Goucher, but I'll never be a 30 minute 10k runner or a 2:2x marathoner.  It sucks.  But them's the breaks.

Be careful not to over-train.  The body needs rest days and slower pace days to recover.

So many topics laced in your original note. Let me pick a few...

"Its embarrassing to train so hard,look in super shape,but go to compete and get beat by people that I do,to the point of not disclosing when my races are,as to not have my family or friends to be there,and yes I am serious....So serious in fact,that after my last 5K this Saturday,I dont know if I will be racing again."

You need to get over this. Stop comparing yourself with others. And accept who you are. I mean that. Life is far too short to give that much credence over this kinds of stuff. This is taking self image to the wrong level. In my opinion.

Along these lines, we all take ourselves seriously, but some take themselves a little too seriously, and I think -- from only the text here -- that you are stepping over the lines. Just to be fair here, I'll pick on myself: I have been running for many, many years, but last year, for the first time in a 20 year running "career", I got into trail running by way of mountain races. These races expose one of my biggest weaknesses. It is in the back of my head each and every race that I can't even come close, and I never will, to top 10 and even to guys who I can easily beat in regular road races of any distance. But that's where I leave it -- in the back of my head. This doesn't mean that I don't try hard to get even faster on the mountains. It means that I accept who I am as a runner, I acknowledge my weaknesses, that I am not perfect a runner, and I do what I can to work on it all. To be embarrassed to the point where I would take myself out of a race, or even consider it, to me would be getting away from the joy I extract from this.

And that's just it. Go out there and have fun. Who the flip cares what others think. The truth is that nobody but nobody gives a care what the time on the clock read when YOU finished; they only care about the time on the clock when THEY finished. It is a selfish sport. Keep it that way. Or at least try. But don't not do a race because you're worried what others might think. That to me sounds wrong.

To your point of some people being better suited to running... of course some people are better suited. There is a guy in the mountain races I do who is in his 50's and usually wins his age group. He always comes in ahead of me. I know I am having a good day if I can see him during the later stages of one of those races. He started running for the first time in his life 7 years ago. Is this fair? He's older than me and I have been running at a high level (for myself) for nearly three times the amount of time as him. Everybody is different. Of course this is fair. Same as in any other part of life.

I have a saying, "Do what you can and do no more." I use this as a mantra to tell myself to work hard, do every little bit I can, and then let the rest go. Because we are as athletes who we are. We can never be more than we are. We can want to be more, and even pretend to be more, and dream to be more. But we can only be who we are.

Moving on... I think others have hit on a possible issue with mechanics, but I don't think you have a mechanical issue. I would think your body is overloaded with slowtwitch fibers, moreso than many others. As an example, I have a love of soccer; I played socially for many, many years, but whenever I get more into marathon training and running, I can't play ball anymore because I lose that quick cutting and burst speed ability, and I lose that because the fast twitch fibers in my legs go to slowtwitch. What you may have is an abundance of slowtwitch.

You can, however, convert the slowtwitch to fast, but it takes a different kind of training. You can try a few things, or do research on your own to figure out what to do. The gist is that your leg turnover is slow. Try to work on getting turnover. You already have the strength, but you need to layer in speed (leg turnover). You just have too much strength. Your legs are like diesel engine rather than high octane racing engines. You can work on leg turnover by setting up checkers on the ground and dancing along them (google on what high school coaches have their runners do) or even on the bike by working on cadence. Try to get your legs to feel more comfortable moving more quickly. And I do not think you will be as successful doing this on the track or with traditional speed work as much as you would with exercies, and I say that because I'm guessing you have that imbalance between slow and fast twitch fibers, with slow being far more than the other.

You're not alone here, though. Look at many of the people who have been running for a long time who run 4:30 or even 4:15 marathons. Their legs are lacking that faster turnover. But it's not just that. Their bodies aren't conditioned to process that kind of oxygen in and out while their legs move that quickly. You can get there. But a different kind of training is required.

When I first started cycling, I was painfully slow. As I continued cycling, I realized that I was only getting as fast as everyone else would with that kind of mileage -- everyone gets faster in the first x number of years of cycling, and if you don't you are doing something wrong. But I wasn't content with that. I want to ride extra fast, crazy fast. And so what I did were two things: I worked on pushed as big a gear as possible for as long as possible to build leg strength and convert my skinny runner legs into machines. And I worked on cadence, with high energy spins for only short duration. This fast twitch work helped me take the strength from the big gear stuff and be able to hold it longer. Without the fast twitch work, my strength would not have been best utilized. Because I would just be a steady state rider rather than one who would go hard (spin fast and push big gear) on demand. Similar stuff to running.

it sounds to me like you are seriously overdoing things.  A fit young man like yourself should be able to run say 6-7 minutes a mile for the 5k for a time in the low 20's high teens.  How much of your running is focused on getting out on the track and learning to run at a faster pace?  That needs to be once a week.  Once a week you need to do a longer run.  Once a week run tempo for 20 minutes with a 10 minute warm up and 10 mins cool down.  Do a couple medium runs.  Cease all the extra crap, twice a day running, etc. etc.

Work out once a day running and take one day off. 

That's how you can start to realize your potential, for now you are just exhausting yourself with all this junk miles and extra workouts.  10 years ago, it was rare to see anyone but an elite or college athlete training twice a day, there's a good reason for that.

Its impossible to say without actually looking at the specifics of what you are doing, I would suggest you have a coach analyze your plan a bit.  But as mentioned, with your fitness and your size, there should be no reason you are not least in the low 20minutes like JR suggests.  It could be possible that you do too much and never reap the benefits of your training because you never recover properly.  Sometimes, well most of the time, you need to do less to speed up.   Need to make sure the intensities of not only your hard workouts, but your easy workouts are where they should be otherwise you will never get beyond this plateau.

No on the quads.  There are some serious cyclists here that have quadzillas and are capable sub 20 minutes 5Ks off the the bike, so that's not your problem.  Someone that knows something should take a close look at what you are doing and need to establish some intensity zones and stick to it, and get enough rest.  I'm sure you would get faster then.  Its not natural ability, its about being smart in your training.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Slow guy 

OK,1st I didnt want to qoute all of you,but I thank each and every one for your input,especially THOR for taking the time to write such an indepth response.

I understand I shouldnt care what others are running,and Im not in any way jealous or anything even close,but as others have stated,to be "in shape"and training I "should"be in the low 20's I would think....

I have not had my gate anaylized,but am working w/a pace group,but havent asked for direct input as I am a newb there but I will very soon.I believe my stride is short,my legs are fairly short so I guess so? The only thing that I believe that I have at my disposal,just a little weird asking him,is the running coach at the college I work at.I suppose I could explain my situation and see if he is at least willing to take a look at my form/gate but not when the 18-20 year old 5 1/2 min milers are there,lol...

And as 1 person stated,it may indeed be turnover,becuase my mile times do not drop,hardly at all,when my mileage increases.The same 5K pace I have is not much faster than my 10mile pace,weird?

 

how many miles or hours a week of running are you doing and how many hours of additional exercise are you doing on top of that?

Maybe it is a matter of genetics.  I've pretty much figured out that I'll never be a sub-6 miler, and for me the effort it would take to even threaten sub-20 for a 5K isn't my idea of fun (I much prefer the longer distances)

Last year, I ran with my brother, who was born with much more of that fast-twitch fiber than I was but is a relatively new runner, on what was his first 4-mile race.  He didn't have that aerobic base that I had from all the marathon running I had done previously so I edged him in the end, but it was laughable how quickly he could jump to a new pace whenever we kicked it up a notch - I was a relative 18-wheel diesel engine by comparison.

Of course, your training needs to be looked at - as jroden said, how much of it is geared toward the faster-style training?  I remember when I was starting how painfully fast a mere 5.0 mph on a treadmill seemed to be, but I knew if I didn't push myself, my body would never adapt to running at those paces for any appreciable period of time.  And like niemsco mentioned, you need a mix of intense and easy training to give optimal performance.  Figuring out what that perfect mix is for you, of course, is the challenge.

How many total miles do you run in a typical week?  Or did I miss that somewhere back there?

Also, keep in mind that the shape of your body has little or no correlation to how fast you "should" be able to run.  Besides just genetics, you have to realize that we all have different backgrounds.  You could be standing right next to a guy with the same genetic potential as you, who has been doing all the same type and volume of running as you, but if you were a couch potato before becoming a runner and the other guy has spent literally his entire life playing soccer, racquetball, swimming, biking, etc. then his body has made adaptations that you won't see for many years, if ever.

People tend to discount the "pre-runner" years, but it all adds up.  Especially what you did during your teenage years.

Its still impossible to say.  If you want to get down to the matter you should establish your lactate threshold HR and train around that number.  If you are looking for a solution to a difficult problem, while you have a high level of fitness, you need to involve some technology a bit (an HR monitor). When you say Intervals or Progressive I don't know if that is real hard or you perceive that as hard.   Your perception of pace and effort may not completely be intuitive after only 3 years of running.  For example, your Tuesday progressive run, that could be something well below your threshold in zone 3, I would call this the grey zone.  Not much benefit to making you faster.   Intervals are they above LT?  You don't know. 

Why run on a day you do pylometrics, I'd change that.   Quite frankly your Tuesday/Wednesday/Thursday seems like 3 hard days in a row.  Then another track workout which makes it a fourth.

I think you can clean this up and reduce the amount of hard days and increase your quality and time in quality zones and add more rest days.  If you want to be a triathlete then I would consider with your years of running you only do 1 hard run a week on Tuesday.  If you just want to run, I can't see doing more than 1 anyways (excluding the long run), but you could try Tuesday (very hard), Thursday tempo, Sunday long.  That would be max with your experience.  The rest should be fluff (easy miles of whatever).  I'd bet you'd get faster.  But then again I would have someone look at this, look at you, and give you some one on one advice. 

For what its worth I started running at 33 and I never ran, ever.  I thought running was stupid and couldn't image why people ever ran for enjoyment.  I was way heavier than you and I bet I'm much shorter, so look on the bright side you have a lot of time to get much better.

From the looks of your plan, a couple things jump out.  first, consider just doing your long run by time, maybe 80 minutes or just a bit longer than the duration of the races you do.

On tuesday, that should be a quality day, i'm not sure what a progressive run is, but perhaps that's the day for the intervals.  The thursday run doesn't make so much sense, as you are running for a long time then running intervals on tired legs, compounded by a hard day weds, I'd switch  the intervals to tu if you are recovered and only warm up for 10 minutes, 4 laps on the track then hit it.

Not sure how stressful the plyo is for you on weds.  do you feel lingering soreness on th?  Seems like a nice workout if not too hard.  I wonder if the run on weds is setting you up for tired legs  for a couple days though, consider either bagging the weds run or the insanity, perhaps add some cardio on the exercise bike after the class.

if you are still tired th, maybe flip flop and do your second quality workout friday or keep it on thursday but make it a tempo workout where you warm up 10-20 mins then run 20 mins at a challenging pace and cool down for 10 mins.  You can do upper body strength same day, just easy on the legs.

Assuming you keep th as your tempo day, friday is easy like you say then saturday is just a medium run followed by 8 x 100 meter strides on the grass.  Running speed work like you do on saturday is excessive and leaves your legs tired for the long run, which can cause injuries.

tu-th are quality, sunday is long.  weds and sat can be medium.  Try to do your strides one day or two days after the medium runs, not sprints just striding out at mile race pace using good form.

that should help you get faster.  avoid being an "adder oner" and doing extra workouts because your friends are doing one or the sun is shining, be disciplined about your training and you will improve and feel less draggy.

i think you answered your own question to a degree.  For the most part, a good rule of thumb is do your fastest running earlier in the week and with only the warmup you need.  Do your long run with fairly fresh legs also.

the rest is up to you, you run at a slogging pace because you spend a lot of time slogging around on legs that must be perpetually tired.  You seem to enjoy training this way, so perhaps accepting the slow race times as a consequence of doing what you enjoy is part of the deal, it's tough to have it both ways.

i do not feel your training program lacks rigor, I do feel it lacks recovery.  There is not real hot and cold, everything is lukewarm after a while.

I trust my being straight with you isn't offensive, that's just how I am.  I assume people want to get an answer rather than a big hug.

Slowdude, Jr might be on to something here. Firstly, I do agree with what Jr said earlier, that there is no reason you shouldn't be able to run a 5K in the low 20's at your age and athletic stature... again, unless there is something mechanically wrong (very doubtful; most people are fairly efficient) or that your muscles are all slowtwitch, too much so.

Although I have a feeling the issue is the latter, that your legs are so conditioned to be slugs (an abundance of slowtwitch muscle fibers), what Jr says here could be assisting this. More on this in a bit.

What sticks out to me is you saying that you kind of have one pace. One pace implies the slowtwitch theory, which could have happened partly because of what Jr mentions. The other part could be from years of the "big legs" thing.

The recommendation is what Jr says. Maybe weed out some of the junk miles on the bike. Then go hard on your speed workouts. Easy on long. And then slot everything else in around those. But don't go over board. You want to have energy for the speed days. On top of that, maybe you work on leg turnover. Google around a bit. You will find many great exercises.

I suspect a person with a high proportion of slow twitch muscles could still run a marathon at 5 minute mile pace, but would be sluggish in a 100m sprint or basketball game.

People say they can't run a decent 5k because of their muscle composition, but I think this is kidding one's self.  All road distances are endurance events.

I agree with Thor, plus he's a really good runner.

Here is a link to a short article, http://www.active.com/triathlon/Articles/Train-Smart-This-Winter_-Base-Training-Basics.htm  There are other similar articles out there.

To me your program appears unfocused. It looks like you want to skip ahead to step 10 before completing the first several steps. It's almost exactly how I trained my first several years and just like you I struggled to get faster and was often frustrated when people who appeared much less fit than me beat me. I remember getting passed by some Clydesdales and wondering how people a good 50-80 pounds heavier than me could be so much faster.

When I started incorporating serious base training, I saw my results improve - and they are still improving. The basic premise is that by working out at a slower pace over an extended period of time the body will develop certain physiological adaptations that allow oxygen to be transported to the muscles more efficiently and at higher volumes. The end result is that a person is able to go longer distances without slowing down. Most people can run very fast - but not for very long. Building a strong base is essential to successful endurance running and far too few people do the necessary work because it takes too long and they're in too much of a rush to be "fast".

At the present time your training has far too much intensity to build these adaptations. Do a solid 4-6 months of base training, building up to around 40 miles/week or so. Then start adding in the higher intensity running like intervals, etc.

I would give up the disjointed running you're now doing and simply run 4-6 miles, 6 days a week at an easy aerobic pace - about 90 seconds per mile slower than your most recent 5K pace. Spend the time to build a solid base, allow your body to make the necessary adaptations, then add some speed in a few months.

I'm also not entirely sure your plyo workouts are beneficial as they likely build much different muscle fiber than what is most useful for faster long distance running. Legs that are overly muscular may need a much higher amount of oxygen to be able to keep the muscles moving at a fast pace. You're not likely to see body builders running at the front of the pack because they simply can't supply their muscles with enough oxygen. If you look at the really fast runners you'll see very little muscle mass in the vast majority.

Lots of stuff here - but I too think it's time to kill the plyos.

Want to be a faster runner? run more, sure - but run smarter. The plan you have here isn't focused on 5k speed improvement. Lots of great suggestions above, just thought I would summarize it

I think you can hit a 24min 5k. this year? maybe not. next year.