Amnesty thread -- good place to ask questions - KickRunners.com
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#1 of Old 09-02-2008, 12:09 AM - Thead Starter
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So, the multisport folks have this thread where you can ask all sorts of questions. Any question. I'll start out with two of them...

1. What's the muscle on the inner upper thigh? That's the one I've pulled...over & over again. Surely it has a name...I'm getting tired of referring to my "inner & upper thigh", however. y'know...

2. What's a wave run? gin79 did one of these this last week.
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#2 of Old 09-02-2008, 01:28 AM
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Does anyone here run by time instead of mileage? I have a friend whose coach has her run by time for long runs and I don't get it. What are the advantages to that?

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#3 of Old 09-02-2008, 03:39 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Econo View Post
1. What's the muscle on the inner upper thigh? That's the one I've pulled...over & over again. Surely it has a name...I'm getting tired of referring to my "inner & upper thigh", however. y'know...
I don't know what the muscles involved are called, but in this link, the author calls it adductor muscle (the not-so-elegant term being "groin pull."wink.gif

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Does anyone here run by time instead of mileage? I have a friend whose coach has her run by time for long runs and I don't get it. What are the advantages to that?
I do, choovie.

I haven't asked the Beer Miler the question directly, but from other discussions we've had, I think that he wants me to concentrate more on perceived effort (if you prefer "perceived exertion"wink.gif and not get too hung up on numbers. So for tempo runs and intervals, it's more along the lines of "HM effort," "a touch faster than 5k effort."

That doesn't really answer the question, does it, on LRs, since time is a number as well? Sorry.

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#4 of Old 09-02-2008, 09:34 AM
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..me too choovie//............originally it was a convenient
way of working the run into
a busy schedule

one of the younger runners (40's) I know does it
this way too,
I have to admit it's kinda weird for somebody to tell ME
about their 45-min run.

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#5 of Old 09-02-2008, 10:02 AM
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When I signed up for a Training Group several years ago, they did all their Training runs by time. Because there were all different speeds/paces represented in the group, this made a lot of sense. Otherwise the fasties woulda finished loong before the back of the packers. This way all the various Training groups got done at the same time.

Econo, there are actually 5 different groin muscles including the adductor magnus, adductor longus, adductor brevis, pectineus, and gracilis. Don't ask me which are which.

Bill
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#6 of Old 09-02-2008, 11:09 AM
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The "wave run" is a type of workout concocted by Tinman, the well-renowned running coach. It is used by many of the people he coaches or used to coach, including rbbmoose, Jim24315 and others. Lately a number of people here have adopted it, such as MCSolar, Gin, and over on RA biketm and a few others.

In the Tinman approach as I understand it, you do two quality workouts per week, not the usual three, but all your quality work is done within them. So you have one long run, and one medium-long run. The wave run is done in your long run, which differs in length based on what you are training to do. E.g, the marathon training program would have you going a bit longer. But for just getting into it, a typical wave run would be about 13 miles, and after your warm-up contains miles at HM or MP pace, followed by easy miles. Here is the one I used to use when I was healthy:

Mile 1: Slow, to warm up
Mile 2: Easy
Mile 3: Easy
Mile 4: MP
Mile 5: Easy
Mile 6: MP
Mile 7: Easy
Mile *: HMP
Mile 9: Easy
Mile 10: HMP
Mile 11: Easy
Mile 12: HMP
Mile 13: Slow or easy

This workout flies by in no time, because you are concentrating on the pace, and it is packed with quality. You get a nice long run in, and you get some mileage at a good pace, AND you get internal recovery time. I have given this run to several people and all of them rave about how effective it is. For your first one, you may wish to write it out and tape it to your arm, but it's easy after that.

(BTW, your medium long run would be about 9 miles or so, and include interval work, a tempo run or progression run.) Tinman's approach has extraordinary appeal for Masters runners because of the added recovery time you get in each week, which Masters runners require as they don't recover as fast as they did when young. Don't I know it! Spareribs
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#7 of Old 09-02-2008, 11:16 AM
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OK, then here's my question: if you've never run a marathon nor half-marathon, how do you gauge your MP or HMP pace? This has always seemed to be one of those things where you already needed to know the answer in order to even pose the question.

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#8 of Old 09-02-2008, 11:43 AM
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OM, you gauge your Race Pace (training paces too) based off of Race results at other distances. See the McMillan Race/Pace Chart (link below).

Bill

http://www.mcmillanrunning.com/Runni...calculator.htm
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#9 of Old 09-02-2008, 11:47 AM
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A 10K race will probably give you a better idea of your HM and M paces than a 5K.

You can also estimate your paces by the rule of thumb that doubling the race distance adds 15-16 seconds per mile to your pace. So

10K pace = 5K pace + ~0:15/mi
HM pace = 10K pace + ~0:15/mi
etc.
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#10 of Old 09-02-2008, 12:47 PM
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And if I only run short distances and don't race...?

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#11 of Old 09-02-2008, 12:48 PM
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... I know, I know -- don't worry about the numbers and just run!

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#12 of Old 09-02-2008, 01:07 PM
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rats, looks like i've been doing tsunami runs, not wave runs:

2mi ez
1mi half marathon pace
1mi marathon pace
1mi half marathon pace
1mi marathon pace
1mi half marathon pace
1mi marathon pace
1mi half marathon pace
1mi marathon pace
1mi half marathon pace
1mi marathon pace
1mi half marathon pace
1mi ez

other times i do just a couple of 2mi alternating sets. the recovery at marathon pace makes it very challenging, and i can only do these a couple of times during a particular marathon buildup.
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#13 of Old 09-02-2008, 01:09 PM - Thead Starter
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Thank you! I will call that thing my "adductor" muscle, because it's implicated in 3 of the 5 that breeder1 listed, plus it puts me in SS's Annoying Adductor Club!

Thank you Spareribs! Sounds a lot like my 10-milers with tiger surges.
But isn't "well-renowned" redundant?

Choovie, I have always thought that the long runs are partially to get your legs used to being in motion for a long time -- over 3 to 4 hours -- regardless of mileage. So if you poop out at 3 hours, you're in trouble in a marathon.


OM, I have never been able to target MP with any accuracy. Ask me about my Portland marathon confusion, heh heh. Right now I'm picking a BQ pace for my MP, but I know it's not realistic (makes me work harder, though).
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#14 of Old 09-02-2008, 01:17 PM
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Actually Econo, it's spelled Abductor. My webpage source misspelled it! (Very good answer to Choovie's "run by time" question by the way ...)

Bill
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#15 of Old 09-02-2008, 01:29 PM - Thead Starter
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aw shoot. Just when I thought I had it identified. Ok, I'll have to go with "groin pull."
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#16 of Old 09-02-2008, 01:43 PM
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There are the aDductors and the aBductors (I'm having deja vu right now, have we discussed this already?). The action of aDduction is to draw things closer into the midline, while aBduction describes moving out away (as in going Bye-Bye!) from the midline. So your aDductors are your outer thigh muscles and your aBductors are your inner thigh muscles.

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#17 of Old 09-02-2008, 01:55 PM
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Quote:
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Thank you Spareribs! Sounds a lot like my 10-milers with tiger surges. But isn't "well-renowned" redundant?
You're a brave woman, Econo. I don't take Ribs on in matters of Grammar. (but you're right)

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OK, then here's my question: if you've never run a marathon nor half-marathon, how do you gauge your MP or HMP pace? This has always seemed to be one of those things where you already needed to know the answer in order to even pose the question.
You've had some good answers, OM. Another option is to work in HR brackets, if you have them set.

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Originally Posted by choovie View Post
Does anyone here run by time instead of mileage? I have a friend whose coach has her run by time for long runs and I don't get it. What are the advantages to that?
I always run for time: it's how Coach sends workouts. I try (and often fail) to remember Joe Henderson's warning that you should plan runs by distance OR by time - but keeping both in mind is an invitation to race every workout relative to the last one and drive yourself into the ground. Not that I know anything about that.

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Originally Posted by Econo View Post
2. What's a wave run? gin79 did one of these this last week.
I use a different flavour of this in every long run: I run a base pace with multiple sessions @MP on and off. Instead of mile-by-mile, each workbout is somewhere between 8-12 minutes. It helps the time go by. If I go out too hard on the first repeat, I'm a hurting puppy by the last one: a good lesson.

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#18 of Old 09-02-2008, 01:59 PM
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This site has a muscle map and a catalog of exercises targeting different body objects (hi choovie!).

I like Listen to Your Pain as a guide to diagnosing and rehabbing injuries.
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#19 of Old 09-02-2008, 02:05 PM
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amnesty? who's getting pardoned??
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#20 of Old 09-02-2008, 02:10 PM
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Well-renowned? She is right. No argument here.

I think the word to describe this kind of misuse is "pleonasm". Shame on me. Spareribs
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#21 of Old 09-02-2008, 02:38 PM
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Dr. D, please pardon me. I can't keep my ads and abs straight.

Watch rbbmoose come up with a swarm earthquake run.

Awaiting the comeback of velour jumpsuit couture.
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#22 of Old 09-02-2008, 03:05 PM
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I hope Moose posts about the wave. He will acknowledge that for marathon training he was doing some long ones and he said they got to be too much. This type of training has a cumulative effect, hence only twice a week. It looks deceptively easy to do, but you have to be careful. Spareribs
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#23 of Old 09-02-2008, 04:37 PM - Thead Starter
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And "pleonasm" is a really cool word. The things you learn from an amnesty thread!
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#24 of Old 09-02-2008, 04:41 PM
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eeewwww.
It sounds too much like neoplasm to me.
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#25 of Old 09-02-2008, 04:43 PM - Thead Starter
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yah, it's like a cross between "polyp" and um, well, something else.
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